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How the system works !,

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   arsu
Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:29 PM 
Reply: >
Three retired army officers working for NAB got promoted to grade 20 a couple of days ago and as it has been decided that NAB will be no more, so these officers will definitely be eying on some lucrative posts in ministries.They got this grade within a very little period of time.Average civilian has to wait for almost 20 years to reach this grade.
ali11 replied on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 02:52 PM 

system is same for anyone.... look who's our president... thanks to the system.

just stop bulshsting about army....
Jan Malik - Dammam replied on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 06:10 PM 

arsu - looks like u hv prejudiced mental attitude towards army officers. It is our army who helps us whenever we need it. U hv written average civilian has to wait for almost 20 years to reach this grade. To my guess these army officers would not be less than Majors or Colonels who must have spent about 15/20 years in active army service. So please do not forget their length of service they have been in army. I hope I hv bn able to get u understand.
Ali3 replied on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 09:13 PM 

and don't forget the unlimited budget they get is at the expense of the lives of innocent children of this great nation of PAKISTAN!!!

Now you'll say it's necessary for the defense! I don't even want to waste time to answer this nonsense.
Abrar replied on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 02:31 AM 

A retired army officer has no place in a civilian public service. A retirement after a full service will give him good pension and other benefits, enough for his own remaining life and his family. If he still wants to work, he can start his own business or join a private enterprise. If he is prematurely retired on medical ground then army can accommodate him with a desk job or give him employment in any of its affiliated project. This is a legacy of army rule, interference in civilian matters and a symbol of corruption. Higher civilian positions should always be available for qualified and deserving civilian public service officers.
Aamir replied on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 03:51 AM 

I think some of the above do not have have any idea of Army Life. Any Army Officer up to the rank of Col is only able to make is both ends meet and too with hardships of serving at far off places, away from his family. All these officers do not have have any access to non-accountable budgets and unlimited powers to cheat or loot any one. The comments by some of the above are realy derogatory for all those who are serving for the country with hardships not known to civilins.
Real Money replied on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 05:52 AM 

In fact their is no use of cursing the army.
They did not come from Israel. They did not come from India. They are our brothers, our fathers and our children.
We are Pakistanis and they are also Pakistanies.
If your lea gives you trouble or your arm pains than no use of cursing the arm or leg.

The valid discussion is that
1)How America, India, Saudi Arabia and almost all other countries managed that military stays away from the politics or what measure we should take to avoid military takeover permanently?

One proposal is that which is suggested by NawaZ sharief that military people should take oath that they will disobey any orders to takeover the government.

Other is that there should be special sizable force to protect the government.


2) How we can reduce the defense spending and use that money to uplift our country. How to bring the justice for the poor, how to eradicate the illiteracy and to eliminate the poverty and how to solve the food and health problems.

One proposal is that which is suggested by NawaZ sharief that military people should take oath that they will disobey any orders to takeover the government.

Other is that there should be special sizable force to protect the government. Military should think 10 times of the armed resistance in case of any takeover proposal.
Ali3 replied on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 06:17 AM 

Aamir, i have personally seen officers of even major level wasting resoruces, taking kickbacks, and even talking of joining the army just for the immense ammount of luxuries, facilities, benefits, etc., not for the cause of love for country, or for serving for it's defense, as they publiclly claim.

Ok, even if we agree that officers up to Col level do not have unaccountable funds (although it's not true), the officers above Col level make up for this. Where else do you think the budget of Pakistan is going for the past 60 years??? Now they claim they cannot defend Pakistan against even the unmanned predator aircraft!

What hardships you are talking about? In other countries, where serving is mandatory, parents pay bribes or in some extreme cases even injure themselves so that they can be excused. In Pakistan it's the OPPOSITE! Why? There is a lot of public relations misinformation about army in this country, and it should be clear in people's minds that these people are together with the worst looters. I am not saying they are the only ones. But they should stop fooling us now under their disguise of an innocent lamb.
ali11 replied on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 06:53 AM 

@ Ali3,

quite a crap you speak. I bet you don't have the slightest idea about army. stop bullshshting around.
arsu replied on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 07:33 AM 

I just wanted to share a news which sounded quite unusual to me.I have high respect for the army and one should not be that harsh to them.It was just our system that i wanted to focus on.But one thing is beyound any debate that more or less they remain unaccountable for whatever they do. General Niazi surrenders in the Pelton field to Gen.Arora and passes all his life in Pakistan whithout being subjected to any kind of accountability.
Eye-blinker replied on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 09:20 AM 

Dear Arsu

Puppets remain unaccounted; what about those who pull-up & play the strings?
Ali3 replied on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:45 PM 

Ali11:
Stop your cheap ghunda gardi, black mail and threats of past 60 years. Why dont you mention facts and figures rather than every time resort to cheap ghunda gardi? You afriad?
Ali3 replied on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:49 PM 

Ali11: probably you are some agency guy paid salary from the money meant to be for education for Pakistani children, sitting at the computer monitoring posts that send shivers down your spine! What will you do? Make me a missing person? Inshallah i'll die with my head up but will not bow to your yazidism.
abj replied on Thursday, October 30, 2008 01:44 AM 

(1) Facts is, as someone rightfully mentioned, the salary /perks are really not too compatable upto the rank of a Col. They bearly make ends meet, and I know that from a few close relatives and friends of mine. These people have nothing to do with toppling govts. and policy making. They obey the superiors, as trained and do what they are paid to do, actually for a very low compensation package comparatively.

(2) Facts is, Pakistan really does not need that big of an Army. We need to divert some of those funds towards education, healthcare, infrastructure and other social issues.

(3) Brigadiers and above have good compensation packages, and so is the case with civilians as well. Especially during Military rule, which unfortunately has been majority of the time since indepencdence, Brig.and above by Military ruler had to be well compensated to keep them part of the team. Pakistan needs to do away with these perks for all these high ranking civilian and army personnel. Pay a reasonable salary and do away with the retirement packages. These are not sustainable in this day & age. Borrow money on high interest and then give it out in retirement benefits to them is really not smart. There are better ways of doing it.

IMPORTANT FACT is, as an educated pakistani, we must respect our armed forces personnel and portray the same to others for the common good of all. If some day, a balance is established between military spending and funding for other social issues, we should all be proud of our disciplined armed forces, and think ten times before criticising them. It will get us nowhere. These are people just like us, who chose that profession, but due to unfortunate military take overs, are perceived as "we the common people" against "them the ruling class". Among most of my friends I know from college, the ones in the forces are always in a financial crunch, and most can barely afford a vehicle of their own, unless they had an opportunity to go serve for a year or so overseas for the UN forces etc., and then they buy a suzuki Alto, that they can only drive with CNG.(These are all col. and under ranks). Compare the Brigadier to your Provincial or Federal Secretary, and you will find a lot of resemblance there in compensation. Not just army, but they all need to be compensated proportionately based upon job functions, keeping in view the per capita income of Pakistan.
Ali3 replied on Thursday, October 30, 2008 09:44 AM 

abj: i also know army people, even low rank officers. you are not even in Pakistan. people in Pakistan know how these people loot! I am not saying they are worse than civilian leaders/politicians/bureaucrats. you don't know what's going on inside the army. even after they retire they have enough power to do cheap ghunda gardi where ever they go.

also, please dont make army "sacred"! over the years we have been deliberately programmed/brainwashed into thinking they are sacred.
Ali3 replied on Thursday, October 30, 2008 09:56 AM 

ok, this time it came to me in two chunks rather than three, isn't that an improvement?

we cannot justify corruption by army people by saying that civilian federal secretaries are also corrupt. the difference is that army behaves like they are sacred angels. also, even is the small ranking officer does a small level corruption, that's not justifiable. the facilities they get for life is not justifiable. all Pakistanis are equally Pakistanis and everybody should get the same facilities. in fact, i can say the ordinary cobbler or hawker is more patriotic to Pakistan than the army officer, they have done more for Pakistan, and if any more service is needed, he is always ready to offer more to Pakistan.

even if hypothetically we agree that the low ranking army officer does small scale corruption, the people who have posted above have themselves mentioned that the high ranking ones do corruption on a big scale. not only it's big, it compensates by several times the low rank officers. so what difference does it make to the common man of Pakistan? If a 100 Billion was taken by a thousand low rank officers, or by a hundred high rank officers? This argument does not make sense.

They are not sacred, they are not respectable, they know it too. They make a fool from us by demanding sacred respect as if they are of another race altogether. In fact, they are arrogant too.
Real Money replied on Thursday, October 30, 2008 12:32 PM 

Dear Ali3

If what you said is 100% true even than spreading hate for the Army will not help anyone but India only. India wanted this.

Please understand that we need reforms in Army but do not need hatred for army.

On the other hand all the army is not corrupt just as all the politicians are not corrupt.
Ali3 replied on Thursday, October 30, 2008 02:34 PM 

Best way to cure an illness is to recognize the disease first. No use hiding our faces behind false pride, false dignity, false independence. Nobody is fool in this world. In fact, the biggest foolishness is to think of others as fools.
abj replied on Friday, October 31, 2008 03:16 AM 

Ali3,
The corruption I am referring to is mostly the Pawari, Tehsildaar, Govt. official, Police or in sarkari Daftar asking for bribe and is a norm, just like in any other developing country. I have never experienced, nor heard a serving officer getting bribes. I am sure there are bad apples, but have you ever had a first hand experience, like a "Major Saab"asking for a bribe? Unless the desired "special treatment" for serving and retired army personnel is what you are referring to as corruption? Or like a Retired Brigadier Saab trying to use the VIP lounge in islamabad, a serving major saab does not need to stand in line like the rest, or dont stop at a police check post etc. Those are different issues, and more or less, are universal issues throughout the world that comes with money or power, even in the west. Life unfortunately, overall, is unfair. I dont think that special golf courses or ski facilities for the fauji's alone is fair, and should have a difefrent criteria then being just a fauji or a relative of high ranking civil servant. Those are different issues.

Actually, its not just that we have been brainswashed. The little I know about some of the developed world, it is considered extremely bad talking anything negative about their armed forces for a good reason. During times of crisis, they come together as a nation under one flag, with support for their govt. and forces. Somehow, I feel sometimes, a lot of us pakistanis want to correct things thru unwarranted criticism & in a negative manner, and it starts from our school days in pakistan, as we are taught that way in school. Positive Re-inforcemnt can do wonders.
Ali3 replied on Friday, October 31, 2008 05:32 AM 

i was talking about actual corruption, bribes, kickbacks, etc.

also, am i spreading hate? or the people who usurp other peoples destinies create hate for themselves? army people are also Pakistanis. I love all Pakistanis more than my life!

However, did the army come forward to solve the countries crises? They just come in after the ten odd years to loot, citing reasons that five to ten years were for civilians to loot, now it's our turn. They call themselves angels, the people with a conscience, people who have come to make the system all right in Pakistan. Those are the reasons they give to justify take over. But what do they do? They also loot in the same manner. Also, as you can see from Musharaf's and Ayub's rule, they like to create a ruling mafia class, and then protect them, and all with the people of Pakistan's money. Why does anyone think they deserve more than others? Why is there so much arrogance and the love for elitism in our society? Musharraf wrongly created the impression that there are two classes in Pakistan, the moderates and the extremists. If you analyze, like i have, you'll see that there are two classes in Pakistan, the 2% elites and the 98% non elites (have nots, slaves). Surprisingly, non-Pakistanis and non-Muslims have highlighted these things more than Pakistanis.

i don't want change through negativity, but I'll also not be a hypocrite and deny the truths just for the sake of positivity. I think change can come through honest people entering politics.
Even then Pakistan best replied on Saturday, November 1, 2008 11:43 AM 

100% agree with Ali3,

There is two nation theory in Pakistan. Army and Civilians.

If any one want to have expereince just go to any cantonment without having cantt pass and do not mention your relation to any army officer.

Then let us know.

Kind Regards
abj replied on Sunday, November 2, 2008 08:09 AM 

Do you suggest that the cantonment area should be open for everyone, and nobody should ask people their business going in or out of cant area? Try going into army facilities in the west, and you may be surprised, where the security situation is pretty good, and they also possess advanced screening techninques. Cantt security is more lax then actually a small private software development building in the US, where you cannot enter without a key card or pass, even if you work there. Is that because there is a Class ystem there?

(though I seriously doubt), but, if someone thinks Army has good benefits, why not join the Army?

A friend of mine joined a big compamny and is now a VP operations. I choose to do something else. Now his perks and previlages are probably ten times better than mine. We pretty much possess same credentials. Should I feel bad that he has a better life style than mine and its not fair. He is now the upper class because he has access to a corporate jet, but I dont, and should have the same previlage, since we both have same credentials?
Pakistan is best replied on Sunday, November 2, 2008 06:12 PM 

Its not point of security its Army personals attitude towards civilians its just like Gora was dealing with Indians.

If you tell them you are guest or relative of ABC Cap/Maj/Col they totally changed.

This is the point I was refering.

PS: I pray you may have access to jet as well but do not see noraml people as ANTS.
abj replied on Sunday, November 2, 2008 06:43 PM 

Thnakyou for wishing me well, and a corporate jet.

So i guess we dont have a class system, but a perception and attitude adjustment issue on both sides. Armed personnel are trained a different way than a Retail Outlet Manager whose job is to please and sell the product for the owner and make him a profit. Although courtesy would be nice, but is rare in Govt. Orgainisatiosn on that level everywhere in the world. You get different treatment when you buy a product in a competative environment than when you go get your passport or Identification renewed. Its not different than waiting in a line at an airport when your immigration documents are being checked, and you are asked questions for the reason of your visit, docements etc. and happens anywhere in the world.
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