Following are all Ayatul Quran which explain the Riba these Clearly denotes that this encircles the personal dealing, that is why God stressess Charities instead of Riba
"God condemns riba, and blesses charities" Mentioning these things together clearly proves that Riba has no connection with Corportae interest. There is no form that charity can be given to a company who seeks loan to expand the business neither Charity can be given to state bank who want to Decrease the Inflation. Riba clealy means that it is person to person delaing where one is short of Fund and other gives money and then he want more money in return.
Below are all Ayayt For Riba in Quran
May God give us guidence
“ God condemns riba, and blesses charities. God dislikes every disbeliever, guilty. Lo! those who believe and do good works and establish worship and pay the poor-due, their reward is with their Lord and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. O you who believe, you shall observe God and refrain from all kinds of riba, if you are believers. If you do not, then expect a war from God and His messenger. But if you repent, you may keep your capitals, without inflicting injustice, or incurring injustice. If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a charity, it would be better for you, if you only knew. (Qur'an 2:276-280) ”
“ O you who believe, you shall not take riba, compounded over and over. Observe God, that you may succeed. (Qur'an 3:130) ”
“ And for practicing riba, which was forbidden, and for consuming the people's money illicitly. We have prepared for the disbelievers among them painful retribution. (Qur'an 4:161) ”
“ The riba that is practiced to increase some people's wealth, does not gain anything at God. But if people give to charity, seeking God's pleasure, these are the ones who receive their reward many fold. (Qur'an 30:39)
“ That they took riba, though they were forbidden and that they devoured men’s substance wrongfully – We have prepared for those among men who reject faith a grievous punishment (Qur'an 4:161) ”
“ Those who charge riba are in the same position as those controlled by the devil's influence. This is because they claim that riba is the same as commerce. However, God permits commerce, and prohibits riba. Thus, whoever heeds this commandment from his Lord, and refrains from riba, he may keep his past earnings, and his judgment rests with God. As for those who persist in riba, they incur Hell, wherein they abide forever (Qur'an 2:275) ”
alpha replied on Thursday, November 6, 2008 09:13 PM
Dear Jameel Sahab
AOA
Thank you for sharing the noble words from Quran Al Kareem.
As a pre-condition to a interest free loan based lending, we need to focus more on honesty and credibility in our financial contracts and business dealings.
regards |
Ali3 replied on Friday, November 7, 2008 10:23 AM
All this is true, i don't argue about that. I'll just say in short: The so called "Islamic" banks in Pakistan is a new concept, started by the free masons, and is more un-Islamic than the conventional banking. It's a lie. Why it took 1400 years for this system of (so called) Islamic banking to be invented? Answer is simple: because it's not Islamic. Yes, these banks have stamps of approval from the grand muftis of Pakistan. By the way, does anyone know how much commissions/salaries they get for putting these rubber stamps? |
arsu replied on Friday, November 7, 2008 01:03 PM
Jameel, i am extremely sorry to say that the interpretation which you have tried to do (as per your own wisdom) of the relevant verses of Quran is totally dubious and wont’t do any good to the people who are already confused on the issue. Could you give some valid reference that supports your interpretation about riba that it is specific only for person to person dealings only. Federal Shariah Court of Pakistan in a case Mahmud ur Rahman vs Secretary Ministary of Law clearly declared that “We are of the firm view that the interest charged on loans and given on deposits by the banks falls within the definition of riba and that it makes no difference whether the loan is taken for consumption purpose or for productive purpose, i.e for trade, commerce and industry”. It is strange to see how someone could justify interest in the Islamic social system, and believes that it helps reduce the inflation. Actual difficulty to understand prohibition comers from lack of appreciation of Islamic values, particularly its uncompromising emphasis on socio-economic justice and equitable distribution of income and wealth. |
alpha replied on Friday, November 7, 2008 03:35 PM
Dear Ali2 and Arsu Sahab
AoA
Thank you for your interesting points.
Can you please elaborate on link of banking practices of free masons and Islamic Banking. The Hebrew Bible (Old Testament)contains prohibition against interest based lending and in some ways the prohibitions are much more strict. The slogans of socio-economic justice and equitable distribution of income and wealth in an Islamic Society are meaningless and are mere slogans in reality as seen in the disparity of wealth in Muslim countries and lack of social justice. My DHA brethren are developing palaces, while the Baloch earthquake victims do not have a roof on their heads.
May Allah give us more people who walk the talk, such as who created SKMH,and save us from those who just say "Zalmo, Justice is coming.." and do nothing.
regards |
Jameel replied on Friday, November 7, 2008 06:39 PM
Dear Arsu, my intension is not to convice people that certain type of interest is judtified the purpose is only to get light form others knowledge, which can help myself.
Fist of all I must say I am talking of Only Corporate Interest in which you are dealing with Govt or State Bank who have Facility of Devalue currency if needed.
This issue cant be resolved by debate, Neither other issue had been resolved in Last 1500 Years, As people have their own stance and and finally they walkout and make their own group.
The people who have some understanding of Macro and Micro Financial system and some "know how" of Islam had been trying to introduce Islamic Banking. Though others has been regarding this as a "fraud". Sorry to say there is no Model or Financial system on the Planet which is not interest based, neither any Successful theoretical Model exits, Nor we have any example in recent past where such a system existed [I am talikg after introduction of Paper currency and notes etc], There are no signs that Metal Coins currency system will replace current Financial system.[Honestly if it happens it will be really devastating] I tried to Collect almost all Ayat ul Quran on this topic and it looks quite clear that it denotes personal dealings in which one Person want to get benefit of other's difficulties. That is why Charity had been advocated.
Think about these Ayat
"God condemns riba, and blesses charities"
"If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a charity, it would be better for you, if you only knew"
So your own understanding and "wisdom" has to come when you deal with this situation.
One refernce from previous Post
The issue is extremely controversial. Here is one reference which says a lot about it:
http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/writings/islamic/r-i-consensus.html
The excerpt:
NOTE for fellow Muslims: Because this topic of riba involves what is haram (prohibited) and halal (permissible) in Islam, every Muslim MUST do his/her own due diligence and conscientiously reach own position/decision in regard to personal practice. In doing so regarding this matter or any other aspect of life, Muslims should seek guidance from the Qur'an and the Prophetic legacy.
"There is nothing prohibited except that which God prohibits ...
To declare something permitted prohibited is like declaring something prohibited permitted." Ibn Qayyim*
Shaykh Mahmud Shaltut
Shaykh Mahmud Shaltut () was an eminent Egyptian Islamic scholar. He was also the shaykh or grand imam of Al-Azhar University in Egypt from 1958 to 1963. Dr. Fathi Osman, in his book, Concepts of the Qur'an: A Topical Reading (2nd edition, Los Angeles, MVI Publications, 1999), p. 919, mentions the following.
"Muhammad Abduh, the distinguished Egyptian mufti and commentator on the Quran [d. 1905], considered the interest paid by the post offices for the savings there as lawful, an opinion later supported by Mahmud Shaltut, the former Sheikh of al-Azhar [d. 1962] Moreover, he allowed for the interest on state bonds, if the economic development and the individual and public interests require issuing them [al-Fatawa, 8th., Cairo: 1975, pp. 351-355]. Additionally, Shaltut agreed to any transaction with any fixed interest in advance, if it was offered by the Muslim state or any establishments subsidiary to the state or affiliated with it, as it assumed that there is no exploitation of either party in such cases." |
Pardesi, Jeddah replied on Saturday, November 8, 2008 08:38 AM
Dear Jameel
If you are only talking about corporate interest, then consider the sources & disposal of these loans & their flip sides as well:
• Deposits from commercial banks in SBP –coming from the individuals’ deposits in those commercial banks.
• Some governmental spending are also non-development in nature for which Govt. is forced to pay interest from its pockets & thus it tends to swayed away from spending on social work programs.
Thus the chain is :
Depositors - Comm. Banks – Central Bank – Govt. – Nation
Starting from depositors, in the light of above Ayat consider interest is haram only for individuals then depositors are not induced to keep their savings in banks, banks have little (but still have something to lend, see below) to deposit with the Central Bank (SBP in Pak), SBP will lend on more tighter terms to the Govt. The Govt. is forced to make spending as its duty while the nation will not be benefitted ultimately as the Govt. will take on development projects for which it can earn & pay-back loan + interest. (I am keeping fiscal & monetary policies aside for the ease of understanding otherwise the above formula will increase rate of taxes & also printing of currency notes will increase inflation).
In short, I am trying develop an understanding that anything which is haram cannot become halal under corporate cover {Individuals will resort to make JSCs to get bank loans}. Likewise, Intoxicants, Gambling, Adultry are haram on individuals as well as Govt level. Despite it is argued that Islamic scholars have not given us a complete banking system, I am convinced that it is the Muslim economists’ duty to give us a banking system of Islam, while the Ulemas’ duty is to assist them in formulating a just & balanced system.
There is a complete model on the planet of the earth by the name TMCL (Time multiple counter loan) ref post 40027. Consider the following:
• Suppose that there is no interest offered by the banks to the individuals:
o Money in circulation will be increasing deviating to profitable investments.
o Still people will deposit some of their money in banks from which banks can offer interest-free loans.
o Banks are also required to facilitate day-to-day transactions.
o They can charge fee of their services.
I hope, the above will help us to develop better understanding. |
arsu replied on Saturday, November 8, 2008 12:42 PM
Jameel, one can never have comprehensive understanding of such an issue merely by going through the literal meanings of the relevant verses. A thorough study of authentic “tafseer” is a must. Historic verdict of the Shariah Board that i quoted earlier is clearly telling that riba is not limited upto “person to person dealing”, but goes farther beyond that. An entrepreneur takes loan from a bank in order to start a business but unfortunately ends up in total loss. Bank would off course never share this loss with him. Does this scenario by any merits coincide with the teachings of Islam. On the other hand a financer has full protection and his money keeps multiplying. Further it would be better if we first establish what exactly this curse is rather that jumping onto other aspects like, whether do we have an alternate system, does it fully comply with Sharia, can it be termed as a true model of Islamic financing and so forth. |
Adeel replied on Saturday, November 8, 2008 03:06 PM
Jameel Sb it is a very tough discussion and you will find people adamant to their stands. I believe that only a person understanding basics about both Capitalist system and Islamic principles is qualified enough to give some Fatwa on it. In any case it is an endless discussion:
Jaanta hoonh Jamaat ka Hashar Kiya ho gaa!
Masaa-il-ay Zahree mainh Ulajh gya hay Khateeb |
Jameel replied on Saturday, November 8, 2008 07:38 PM
Dear Pardesi, Thanks for your input The Modern Financial system has many aspects and money things are interlinked,
The Key players are
Interest
Currency Value
Various Taxes
Inflation
Job Market
Trade Deficit
Other market Forces like Oil prices
Emerging markets
And recently overseas workers
It is not even 3 dimensional rather it has 10 s of dimensions,
I know TMCL already exits this is a product not a perfect Financial system, it is usually given as an injection to boost slow economy and main contributor is mostly state Bank.
zero interest rate
Promotes Spending Economy,
Discourages saving,
increases imports,
increases Trade Deficit,
Increases inflation,
Helps creation more jobs
and creates difficulties for less active community like less skilled workers, old retired people, People on Flexible jobs due to some disability, widows Orphans etc , it does so by increasing inflation and decreasing income for above mentioned people.
At the same time Zero Interest sometimes also wipes the money of wealthy people like you and me, think about the scenarios
Zero Interest you Compel to open small business, too many business of that sort than needed and ultimately failure this happens so often,
Easy loans for making buildings too many buildings in pipe line than need Property Crash same may happen in Dubai Soon already happened in America when interest rates were low [imagine what could have happened if it was Zero Interest]
Same can happen to industry
So in the financial system you talk of any thing nothing is without side effects, and all are interlinked and needs checks and Balance. |
Habib replied on Sunday, November 9, 2008 04:07 AM
I studied Shaikh Mahmud Ahmad’s Concept of Time Multiple Counter Loan is not in Place any where, it a theoratical model, I appreciate the efforts and intend of Sheikh, It simply says that If Mr Habib takes 100 Rupees from Bank he should return 102 Rs to the bank after one year and Bank should Keep 2 Extra Rupees with it for 50 Years and Return him at 2 Rupees at end of 50 ys.
It has many Flaws,
This is simple lay man calculation does not take into account 1.currency Devaluation,
2.Inflation over 50 years Point in two Rupees in year 2009 can do the same good job as it would do in 2059.
3. It does not insure default
4. It Does not take into account market uncertanties in long period, Risk and uncertainties are less in 2008 to 2009 than in 2009 to 2059. A practical model of Banking should take into account the above mentioned aspects and it should also be viable to pay salries of people,a dn investors interest,
If we do so many amendments in this above theoretical model then final product will almost same as that of Current Loan, The Product will be more comples if . Mr Habib want to pay in instalments to bank. So Ultimately product will be same you take 100 and you pay 5,6 more next year. |
Pardesi, Jeddah replied on Sunday, November 9, 2008 06:02 AM
Just 2 quick points Dear Jameel
1. Too many businesses: Yes, but the self-correction will come when people tend to realise that they need to be more creative/competitive. Mere, money in circulation do promotes inflation but inflation is balanced-out with more business & job opportunities. Creation of property bubbles is just because of lack of other business opportunities available.
2. For retired/disabled/widows, etc. I would suggest to take the example of China having huge population including the above classes but everybody has work to do. Cottage industry, agriculture, fields of education, medical, etc. will be good places to work
nb: For retired/disabled/widows Islam suggests a system of social welfare.
Thanx. I really enjoyed everyones input. |
FRIEND'S DEBATE replied on Saturday, January 1, 2011 07:24 PM
THESE ARE FRIENDS’ DEBATE:
WHAT IS RIBA IN ARABIC?
IT IS NOT EQUAL TO INTEREST. WHO HAS COINED RIBA=INTEREST? RIBA IS RIBA!
WHEREAS COMMERCE AND CHARITY IS ENCOURAGED AND REWARDED BY ALLAH SWT, RIBA IS CONDEMNED.
THERE MAY BE VESTED INTEREST IN COINING THE WORD RIBA=INTEREST!
It may be excesses, exorbitant, exploitations of persons in difficulties. To condone or write off Loans and advances folios if persons are NOT able to repay. In fact these practices are prevalent in Banks in India. In adverse circumstances often government also comes out with regulations comes to the rescue in these regards.
It is so much relevant in today’s context, as we hear the news of farmers and other persons doing suicides.
HOW TO RECOVER LOANS? If it is NOT recoverable what are the options?
Recover by EQUITY, evenhandedness, fairness, impartiality, justice, fair play.
Whereas the Person availing LOAN must be exemplary in Character, Honesty, Sincerity, Integrity, truthfulness, frankness, candor, openness.
Interest on deposits is same like dividend given out of profits of Banks. Deposits are like investments and kept for safety and liquidity and emergency needs. If the Indian government Banks coins the word dividend instead of the problem will be solved. After all it the depositors’ money which keep the banks’ running. And they should be TREATED AT PAR with equity share holders. |
