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Thursday, November 13, 2008 08:32 PM 

mr jameel and mr junaid

some iranian people studying (masters degree) abroad have told , that they have paid 20000$ to the iranian goverment for leaving the country after a master degree in science from an iranian uni..and they felt absolutely fine with paying this amount..because in their opinon the seat they have been studing on could have been used by a person who would benefit the country..those iranians were proud of their home country but it because they were not muslim and didnt had the freedom as nonmuslim...but still they were not against the rules concerning the education system...

the conclusion is that it is very costly for a country to produce academics in other words they are the cream who should stay in the country and serve the country ..the country which have given them the golden opportunity.

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Junaid replied on Friday, November 14, 2008 12:53 AM 

Dear Friend you are missing my point and giving example of nonmuslim iranian in muslim country where they have to pay 20000 just to use their basic right of freedom to chose ..
My point is that we should make education as business like other countries (india, russia, south america etc) are doing by educating people and send them to bring forign reserve ...
one doctor in pakistan makes only 20,000 Rs a month and spend most of it on him and hardly serve .. where as one doctor makes 15,000 dollars a month if he send back only 1000 dollars ..it will produce many more jobs here in pakistan for others and many more people will be able to become doctors ...

send us dollars replied on Friday, November 14, 2008 01:53 AM 

what about you people in pakistan work little harder. obey the rules ,when standing on the traffic light dont brake the signal, when in line dont cut the line, when become wealthy please pay taxes, pay the whole zakat and one more thing please educate yourself,dont sit at home and rely on others to send dollars . work hard thats the lesson for friday.

Jameel replied on Friday, November 14, 2008 03:49 AM 

I got your Point, in 1970s it was similar situation in Pakistan and you were supposed to obtain NOC, But when Govt saw that there is huge surplus of Doctors and engineers in pakistan, then they allowed them to go abroad without NOC, If the time would come that Pakistan needs these propfessionals badly then Tarrif like this should be imposed. My Brother in Law is an Engineer he said
"I left the Country 10 Years Back, Before that I worked 7 ys In paksiatn's Govt Job. Honestly I tell you the work I had been doing in Pakistan had no compatibility with my technical education, Most of my work was a bit of admistration, and Public dealing listening to people's Complaints and catering the Chits of VIP people and priortize them as per Policy of Department. Where as I am highly Technical person and and my job title was also Technical"
I am not sure what is Situation now, similarly Doctors are working in similar Condition and Doing GP Clnics where they are Charging 50 to 70 rupees, Now Look at MBBS Doctor after Qualification and 10 experience he is available just for 50 Rupees without appointment, It shows there is huge surplus of these people in Pakistan,
My Point is if you produce 100 professional and give them liberty to go abroad at least 40,30 will still stay in pakistan due to many other reasons and there can never be shortage, where as others can send a lot of Foreign exchange to pakistan.
On the other hand to export the other goods Pakistan needs many decades, reason in the things Back home are so expensive and So bad quality that they cant Compete with Interenational market. Only our professional can compete in interenational Market, because UK rules on us 90 years and we know current Globla language, our educational systems are still Ok and we have alots of Talent.
But at the same time govt should formulate the way to properly use these foregin remittences in diversified sectors.

Aamir replied on Friday, November 14, 2008 04:12 AM 

Pakistan is the only country in the world where the numbers of Doctors are double of the Nursing staff.

eh replied on Friday, November 14, 2008 04:45 AM 

mistake," God bless us and save from these vulchers.

Naveed Yaseen replied on Friday, November 14, 2008 06:55 AM 

1)
> when Govt saw that there is huge surplus of Doctors and engineers in Pakistan

I think Pakistan faces shortage of doctors. Here are some figures...

QUOTE
The number of doctors registered in Pakistan at present is about 110,000. It is estimated that about 25000 Pakistani doctors are working abroad. Leaving 85000 for a population of about 150 millions making a ratio of one doctor for 1764 persons. The doctor population ratio/recommended for developing countries like Pakistan by W.H.O is 1 doctor for 1,000 populations. At this ratio the requirement of doctors in Pakistan for 150 million population is 150000 doctors. This shows that we require another about 65, 000 doctors in the country to fulfill our own needs. A shortage which appears very difficult for the public sector medical colleges to overcome...

The government medical colleges train about 4000 doctors each year and out of a total of 85000 doctors in the country, about 2000 die each year, about 500 leave the country and go to practice abroad and about 200 particularly lady doctors stop practicing the profession. Only about 1300 doctors are added each year to over all total. In this way it is just not possible to overcome the shortage of 65000 doctors even during the next 50 years.
UNQUOTE
(
ref)

Although this excerpt accounted non-practicing female doctors in growth figures, it didn’t account them in existing base figures, so number of doctors practicing in Pakistan is likely to be worse.

The situation is far more worse outside big cities, for higher health complication rate in rural areas, and for general inclination of doctors to urbanize or emigrate.


> Doing GP Clinics where they are Charging 50 to 70 rupees. Now Look at MBBS Doctor
> after Qualification and 10 experience he is available just for 50 Rupees without appointment,
> It shows there is huge surplus of these people in Pakistan,

But there are usually long lines waiting at hour scale for 5-10 minute consultation. I think that indicates shortage rather than surplus.


> Pakistan is the only country in the world where the numbers of Doctors are double of the Nursing staff.

That doesn’t necessarily means doctors are surplus, that may (and likely) mean that qualified nurses are even more short.


2) Situation of engineers is not very different.

If an engineer (or any professional) feels that government or other institutions aren’t properly utilizing his skills, he can, and should, build his own business from his skills.

If he lacks social skills needed for business, he/they should team up with some who do.


3) I believe it is a false sense of economy to think professionals’ forex remittance more valuable than professionals themselves.

What they send home is just a minor fraction of their real value. Most of their value stays abroad in form of,,,,

- well-being of their clientele (immediate and direct effect)
- well-being of their clientele’s dependencies (long-term and indirect effect)
- profits to their employers
- profits to their business's associated businesses
- taxes to their governments
- their role as consumer in economy abroad
- specific social effects in their respective fields (like aggregation, education, confidence and motivation)
- general social effects, difficult to measure but real

If they utilize themselves properly at home (and we should facilitate them to do that), they are lot more valuable at home than abroad.

arsu replied on Friday, November 14, 2008 09:19 AM 

Its an open secret that we do have surplus engineers and doctors, and reasons are evident too. But the point that letting them go out will result in bringing huge remittances to pakistan is not close to reality at all.Most of the professionals who move towards west to earn bread start with low profile jobs as our degrees are not recognised there.An engineer who gets his engineering degree from the top university of the Pakistan is not taken as an engineer even. He has to spend a couple of years before being inducted in that system as professional engineer.And once he finds a place in that system, he becomes a part and parcel of that society only.Expecting from such a professional that he will be of some help to pakistan as he will be sending remittances on regular basis and helping in escalating the reserves is merely a daydreaming.Yes the professionals who move towards Gulf countries to some extent do contribute and send remittances to pakistan on regular basis, do buy properties here and mostly prefer settling in pakistan only after spending good time there.

alpha replied on Friday, November 14, 2008 10:29 AM 

AoA
The decision to where to practice one's trade should be better left to the individual. However, one also has to be cognizant of the fact, that the Tax money Pakistani expatriates pay in many countries end up in military conflicts where many innocent citizens (and Pakistanis) die.

regards

may Allah bless pakistan replied on Friday, November 14, 2008 11:36 AM 

mr junaid

"....one doctor in pakistan makes only 20,000 Rs a month and spend most of it on him and hardly serve .. where as one doctor makes 15,000 dollars a month if he send back only 1000 dollars....."

this does not make any sense the differences you have been comparing are absolutely not correct...besides that a doctor earning 15000$ would not send 1000 back home .he will proberly send 20000PKR for his parents/brothers/sisters if not independent....
on the other hand i know people that have left their country for ages and have never looked back specielly in US and UK...their children cant even speak urdu..becasue the educated parents want to integrate into the US UK community as quick as possible...so how can you think that they will send money back

i totally agree with mr arsu that when these educated people leave the country "the mano-salwa " is not ready fot them next day ..they have to repeat it all and do degrees again because the pk degrees are not accepted (i persoally know people with masterdegrees from islamabad had to start from beginning to do bachelor degree)..
that means another 3-5 y are wasted with a source of income coming from dishwashing at mcdonalds or cleaning in a office, news paper distribution or as a factory worker just for survival and off course these jobs are shamefull to do in our own country and will bring dishonor to their families ...
why cant they struggle in their home country with jobs related to their education...start with lower pay and estabilish them from there..and upwards...

second thing i totally agree with mr naveed yaseen that there are not enough doctors and engineers in pk, and by sending even more of them is a thinking that bring the country towards downfall

hak replied on Friday, November 14, 2008 12:22 PM 

I think when we talk about having surplus engineers or doctors, it is that quantity of professionals that after having degrees don't find slots here in the Pakistan job market.Like if 3000 electrical engineers come out every year, only 1500 out of them manage to get jobs in the govt or private sector, the balance are taken as surplus.These surplus engineers may also be able to get jobs if we expand our industrial sector thereby creating more jobs.Likewise surplus doctors does'nt mean at all that our healthcare sector is prompt and masses are gatting quality healthcare services.We all know the case is other wise and since we don't have enough hospitals to accommmodate this lot, hence they remain surplus.Undoubtedly private sector in pakistan has done a lot in healthcare sector and almost 70% of the healthcare services are being born by private sector in our country.Net result remains that we do need these docs and engrs and in actual can't term them as surplus.

arsu replied on Friday, November 14, 2008 02:16 PM 

You have defined it right hak, a country where doctor to patient ratio is as high as 1: 1600 and and there is just one specialist available for every 15,000 citizens, how can we be truly surplus.

alpha replied on Friday, November 14, 2008 02:56 PM 

AoA

For my brother, who is doctor, the defining moment to leave Pakistan was when he went to Federal Public Service Commission office, and the guard outside yelled at him "Tere vurgey burey doctor vekhey hein, chul bahr jaa" [Translation: "I have seem many doctor like yourself, get out!]. Good for him, he sticked to the Guard's advice of "bahr jaa". I guess, the point to make is the lack civil sense and basic respect Pakistanis accord to their fellow country-men forces them to go abroad.

regards

Shahid, Australia replied on Friday, November 14, 2008 10:03 PM 

Most of us raised and educated in Pakistan have connections back home for the rest of our lives and do send money back home or spend it when we go back in large amounts...

Junaid replied on Saturday, November 15, 2008 04:18 PM 

Dear Mr naveed and Allah Bless, You are missing my point again here i never said tht Pakistan don't need doctors and we have enough for our need my point is we need Atta more than doctors at this point .. may be there is shortage of doctors by few thousands and wait line is 30 min more ..but 100's of millions people need jobs here to servive .. and as to we don't need forex is bull ..we live in world where you sell your wheat to get oil ..if you are importing you need to export .. and my point is to make more doctors and IT's and use education as resource .. many countries are doing so and we should too. And i will ask mr naveed to prvide information(since he good to get educated info) about how much was sent to Pakistan by foreigner Pakistani people in last years just to prove my point ..

arsu replied on Saturday, November 15, 2008 05:08 PM 

Junaid, your point is well undestood, but you are sticking to a point ignoring so many realities around. You should have quality product to export,so that it does not face tough competition in the international market becomes a source of bringing some revenue to the country. Fact of the matter is that our professionals are not that worthy, and stand nowhere close to the professionals from the countries that you have indicated.What else to say, it takes almost 6 years for an engineering professional in our country to complete a 4 years degree. Your point would only look solid if we produce quality professionals which can be integrated anywhere in the world.How unfortunate it is that west does not recognise the credentials and skills of our professional.Hope it might help
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