Lahore Real Estate Forum

                                                          
 
Back to Forum |

Passports are kept by employer !,

(49641)
Tuesday, December 9, 2008 01:51 PM 

In gulf countries, usually the passports of the individuals who go there on work visa's are kept by the employers, perhaps with an intent that on getting a better offer the individual might not run away.Can someone share whether the same practice is followed in the west.

MH replied on Tuesday, December 9, 2008 03:39 PM 

This is considred a crime in the west.Even no employer can delay,hold salary of any employee without his permission.
My brother's passport was held by a saudi employer in saudi arabia for two years.

Jan Malik, Dammam replied on Tuesday, December 9, 2008 06:44 PM 

I am working in Saudi Arabia as a Pakistani expatriate for the last 32 years and responsible for such affairs of my company. Although Saudi law is silent on thus aspect, but it is general practice that a passport of a foreign employee is held by the sponsor in a safe cabinet by me and instead a Residence Permit (Iqama) issued by the Saudi Government is delivered to the employee which is valid for all matters e.g. applying for driving licence, opening of bank account, applying for family visa etc. etc. To my point of view this is not crime hence it is better that a passport is kept by someone who is responsible as there are chances that a passport may be lost by an employee. It is natural that if a passport is kept by the sponsor he is solely responsible for its safe custody. Moreover, most of the time with the permission of an employer or he wishes to release his employee, an employee can change his sponsorship. There is a transparent system of change of sponsorship. Hope I have satisfactorily answered the query.

Analyst_1 replied on Tuesday, December 9, 2008 07:40 PM 

By reading above posts, i am really thanksful to Allah that i did not move to any of the gulf countries for work where they treat workers as animals. Saudi arabia is a holy place and i love it but their laws are not based on equality. Same situation is in other gulf countries.
My friend Arsu, i have been in the west for 8 years now and can assure you that such practices do not occur here. You get all the rights which you even cannot have in your own country.
Your employer will treat you with respect. They cannot descriminate on the bases of religion, language and cast. I know, there are many cases where they descriminate, but you have a choice to go to court against them. In fact, they learnt from our religion and adopt islamic practices more than we followed.
Thats the reason, even though muslim world has all the resources of the world but still bow to west.

overseas wisher. replied on Tuesday, December 9, 2008 09:03 PM 

I am agree with Analyst 1 and we muslim countries should adopt islamic ways but looks like Western countries have adopted more islamic things than our own coutries.

MH replied on Tuesday, December 9, 2008 10:18 PM 

The matter is not only holding passports But also confiscating all the payments the employee has worked for the employer.Employer can keep the photo copies and local pakistani embassy can provide a passport in case of employee lose his passport,which is the purpose of local embassy.My brother's passport was held by his nemployer and was forcing them to work more than 12 hours a day without paying any extra money.Can we think this in the west?
Another example of expoitation is Dubai, paying very low wages to the labourers.On the other hand employee gets pay equal to US if he is holding a westren passport.I have a friend,a Gora,getting more than US$6000/month plus travel,residence etc in Dubai.
Regards,
MH

Naveed Yaseen replied on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 01:05 AM 

To answer specifically, no it doesn't happen in west, or US at least. Even the H1-B or seasonal workers, officially obliged to work for their sponsors only, retain their passports.

If some employer demands to keep passport with him, one should avoid working for such employer for reasons other than passport being withheld. However if one has to work or is already working for such employer, one can recover passport whenever one feels like to do so. Even if passport was agreed as a 'security deposit'. That is because agreements violating fundamental human rights are not honored in courts of law.

On gulf governance norms, I feel very much like what 'Analyst 1' said. Besides many arguable laws and norms, some are just stark naked against principles of natural justice, like,,,
- to deny citizenship by birth
- to restrict women's employment and judicial rights
- to restrict judicial rights of aliens
- to execute on presumption that possession of narcotics is always willful
- to execute minors on presumption they can judge accurately and cannot be exploited emotionally
- to persecute for asking accountability from rulers, let alone asking legitimacy

alpha replied on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 02:42 AM 

AoA, I believe not all Gulf countries and not all employers in Gulf countries keep passports. Fair Labor Standards Act was passed in the US at the end of industrial revolution to protect the labour rights in 1938.

Azeem replied on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 02:46 AM 

In response to Mr. Jan Malik:

I appreciate your loyalty with your firm and commitment to the country where you have been staying for more than 32 years, however I am surprised to know that keeping the passport is not a crime but it is actually a favor for the individual??? just to ensure that passport does not get lost by the individual?? In that case, why dont they deposit check books, jwellary, etc...No Sir! their only intention is to hold the employee (typical slavery mindset) and empower the local sponsors....We as muslim countries need to learn a lot from the western countries (I m talking about policies related to human rights...sure we dont have to adopt their culture but look at the freedom they provide to the general public..

Ahamad replied on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 02:51 AM 

Passports are kept by employer in Saudia and not in any other Gulf country.
There are certain reasons for it:
Mostly employer arranges visa for the employee after accepting terms and condition by him. In USA and Europe this is not the case.
After getting visa from one and then change over to other is allowed but with some restrictions.
People here can switch over jobs.
There are certain rules and regulations for every country and we should not criticise. Look our country! Is it easy to speak againt rulers? What about handing over Pakistanis to USA for Dollars.
What is situation of human rights (specially women)in Pakistan? See condition of our cities specially Karachi. You have to get registration in your own country.
There are discriminations every where. Pakistanis have no respect in Pakistan and how can they expect from others?
So please look at yourself before criticising others.

abj replied on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 02:55 AM 

I am trying to understand the logic,

"The Employer keeps the passport safe so it does not get lost"..

In short, the "ARABS" need to start treating people from third world countries as human beings like the rest of the world does, as they are not far from being in our shoes soon, maybe just a generation behind. In the next 20-25 years, the developed world is talking about alternative energy sources. No more Oil revenues mean the ARABS back on camels in a hot desert. Imagine them without oil revenue and NO SKILL SET. I wonder how far the revenue from selling "Dates" and "Haj" (tourism) can take them. A lethal combination for the " HABIBI HAIYAA HAIYAA" ignorant lazy *&(&^#%&^&#%*&)dressed in funky long white, who are incapable of making a decent living on thier own. Their time is coming. I simply dont like them as they treat pakistanis as less than human beings.

Milo replied on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 04:11 AM 

Unfortunately WE all (especially Arabs) are only MUSALMANS (read only kalma) and not the MUSLIMS (not following the ALLAH orders).
While WEST (generally) are not MUSALMANS but they are MUSLIMS.

Our all attentions & efforts are for HAQOOQ ALLAH but we have forgotten the equally important HAQOOQ AL-IBAD.

ALLAH may forgive us his rights (HAQOOQ ALLAH) but if we do any thing wrong with someone, only that person has the right to forgive us and ALLAH will not clear us for HQOOQ AL-IBAD.

In GCC (gulf countries) mostly they still have the concept of SLAVERY in the back of their minds. Discrimination, keeping the passport, delay in salaries, not giving the agreed salaries, not giving the due overtime, bad treatment, thinking of expats as HASHRAAT (only third world expats, peopel from west are treated as MAI BAAP) are the very common practices.

Ahmed replied on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 06:09 AM 

Saudi Arabia:

In KSA, passports are kept with the employer and a residence permit called IQAMA is issued to the employee. Even if the passport is given to the Employee, it is of no use because a person can not go out from Saudi Arabia until his EMPLOYER goes to Passport Office(JAWAZAAT) and gets the passport of the employee stamped for EXIT and RE_ENTRY(to come back).
No one can get that stamp on his passport without the approval of his KAFEEL(Employer or Sponsor). So you may have seen that in most of the cases, the people living in Saudi Arabia can not(normally) reach in the JANAZA of any of their dearest one as the process of getting the passport stamped depends upon the SPONSOR as well as it takes time also in the Passport office. An other aspect is that, most of our Pakistani brothers who are not having jobs with very good companies rather working for some small companies owned by a person, don't have direct approach to their sponsor. Even some don't know their KAFEELS(Sponsor). But contrary to that, I have seen practically, that people living in the west, UK, USA, etc are still able to reach in time and attend the JANAZA.
It is only one aspect. Ofcourse there are some many good points also in Saudi arabia like its life style and living environment, being very close to KAABA and Madina.(The purpose is not to start any discussion rather just to share the information and reality with other friends who don't know too much about GCC countries).

Friends just read this. The other informations I will send later.

M.Ahmed replied on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 06:59 AM 

CHANGING THE JOB IN KSA.

A person can not change his job with out the approval of his KAFEEL(SPONSOR) even he gets better offers from other companies. So he has to continue his job with his current employer/KAFEEL. In 98% of the cases, the SPONSOR will not agree for that even the person has spent many years with his employer.(Even 10, 15 or 30 yrs).

Ok, the only option left is to resign and go back to your country. Now from here an other story starts. Once you are out of KSA without having NOC from your employer(which will not be given in 98% of the cases), you can not come back to Saudi Arabia with an other employer before a period of 3 Years(having visa at Saudi Embassy in Islamabad) and before a period of 1 year(having Visa at Saudi Counsulate at Karach).

Before our brothers(with manual passports) were going back to Pakistan and getting new passport(having no previous proof of their work at KSA) and then getting back to Saudi Arabia in few months(some times immediately). But still if the previous EMPLOYER came to know and he objected, the person will be deported immediately from KSA.
But now with new computerized passport this channel has been blocked9approximately).
So before signing any agreement with any employer in KSA, make it very much clear with your employer about NOC issue and dont believe untill it is mentioned in your contract that he will issue an NOC or grant NAQAL KAFALA(permission to change the sponsor while staying in saudi Arabia) at the termination/resignation from the job.

arsu replied on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 09:25 AM 

Jan Malik, i think its not only the safe custody, but mainly to ensure that workers don’t leave a job in the middle of the contract. Criticizing this aspect would not be fair as countries where percentage of expatriates is much higher than the native population, one needs to devise measures in order to run the system smoothly. Can someone be specific about what measures do employers usually take in the west to ensure that expats working under them on work visas don’t switch over so freely. It would be nice to hear from someone who is working on H1B visa or HSMP. West has been selected by Allah for sun setting only, it’s the east from where the sun rises.

Observer replied on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 10:03 AM 

Time to call an end to the disgraceful behaviour of Arabs toward third world nationals. If someone believes that Saudi help means they are untitled to humiliate poor people than its lack of self respect selling honour for aid.

mahmood replied on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 11:13 AM 

Being in Gulf is a blessing I am working in a Gulf country where the peace of mind is there tax free income and religious freedon and free to eat anywhere anytime. People living in west can only dream these things.

How west treat muslims have my own experience visiting UK and Holland and heard too many stories in US also. In France they have two 12 year girls expeled from school for wearing scarf.

If you take out the religious part out of our life I think life may become compareable with guld countries.

In west they call it civilization where you cannnot even shout at your own kids but that what is not in our religion but living in west we accepted so many things againt our base.


I personally dont feel it a issue with the passport as its available to you rnay time you need to tavel you need to stamp you passport for making an exit from KSA and that what your employer has to do so it does not matte who hold the passport.

there are exception everywhere and in Gulf too however one who live is a guld country have much better life then any one in west. People do make coments from far are far from reality.

the issue in gulf countries are there with respect to illegal immegrant.

Views expressed above are my personal view and reader need not to agree.

Ag replied on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 11:33 AM 

For Mr.Jan Malik:
How come a person,who has such a poor reasoning ability is working in Saudia for past 30 years.If true,this means strange things do happen.
My vote and respect for those people,who have no choice but to give their passport.

alpha replied on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 12:33 PM 

I want to politely submit, that we voilate labor laws while practicing bonded and child labor in Pakistan. Lets first accord respect our fellow-Pakistani brethren first at home.

papajee replied on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 05:01 PM 

In my opinion these so called arabs are double zero's holding a fan belt type on there heads, and they really mean to have no mind of there own, they are too afraid from there employees, and we are just wasting time and space to talk about them any way.

JI replied on Thursday, December 11, 2008 06:55 AM 

Jan Malik,
What a stupid stupid argument "we keep them because they might loose it". There are other things more precious that they might loose, dignity is one of them. Wife and kids is the other.

Observer replied on Thursday, December 11, 2008 09:02 AM 

How ready are we Pakistanis when it comes to degrading ourselves in the name of religion or for the sake of money. Religion and earning do not have to make you a slave.

Zahid replied on Saturday, December 13, 2008 08:10 AM 

Its very simple.......ID card, passport, educational degree/certificates etc are the personal properties of an individual, which helps him to have certain rights as per law of the land. Any body snatching or taking his personal document from him is obviously dening a basic human rights and black mailing nothing else. This is like JAIL rules. Logic answers every thing.
>