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(49762)
Friday, December 19, 2008 07:57 PM 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India_may_still_strike_at_Pakistan_US_report/articleshow/3864009.cms

Naveed Yaseen replied on Saturday, December 20, 2008 04:01 AM 

Currently the military confrontation with Pakistan is not in India's and west's best interests. So it will not happen.

Propaganda and threats are psychological warfare tactics. Its upto Pakistan to understand these, counter these, and do whats in Pakistan's own best interest.

Air defence replied on Saturday, December 20, 2008 05:14 AM 

Threat perceptions are based on our history and intelligence reports and troops formation across the border.
IMF has instructed govt. of Pakistan to cut defence budget.
It is all engineered.
Indian airforce breached Pak air force but the only ground defence available with Pakistan was anti aircraft guns! I think armies from second world war time had more advance equipment than present day Pakistan.
Pakistan seriously need a modern air defence system and by no means india will allow us to buy any defensive equipment.
I think parliament should summon cheif of army staf and ask him to answer how he plan to defend Pakistan air space with antiair craft guns and chinese version of mig 21?
Indian air crafts which entered Pakistan air space could shoot Pakistani air crafts before getting in visual contact and Pakistanis cannot shoot invisible target.
In recent US - Indian redflag exercises SU-30MKI proved to be the most advance fighter jet which have the ability to jam electronics of opponent fighter jets and following missiles.
Pakistan is only safe due to the nuclear detterence.
Pakistan does not have the ability to shoot down intruding enemy aircrafts and india or America has the ability to shoot down our nuclear assets.
Only possibility to stop Pakistan to retaliate with nuclear weapons is to control our political leadership and national security council.
If people were following statements of present govt. from day one it is not difficult to analyse what task are the trying to acheive.

Naveed Yaseen replied on Saturday, December 20, 2008 07:38 AM 

How powerful are their offenses and how weak are our defenses, it doesn't really matter much. Apparently this may look stupid, but this is real. I would try to explain below the reason why.

Defense against offense is usually one of least effective ways of defense because of,,,,
- choice asymmetry (of place, time, method)
- information asymmetry (of palce, time, method)
- thermodynamic asymmetry (it is lot easier to destroy or disable things than to build or maintain)
- required sophistication (more possible error points)
- ease of dodge (serial dependecies between parts/processes)
- resource intensiveness per unit (depth)
- resource intensiveness for wide coverage (breadth)
- often it isn't perfect enough to protect all hits in actual battlefields (fewer hits damage is usually as capable of disabling a process as many hits damage)
- even when highly effective, still it alone cannot keep enemy from "rolling the dice".

Defense by capability to inflict damage (or by deterrence), is relatively far more effective, by choice asymmetry, by information asymmetry, by thermodynamic asymmetry, by fewer resources needed, and more importantly by it’s effectiveness in actual battlefield.

Pakistan's defense strength is in deterrence. While nuclear deterrence is the backbone of Pakistani defence, it is not the only thing that keeps enemies away from Pakistan. There are also some more deterrences in Pakistan's bag,,, like capability to destroy rival's infrastructure, capability to catalyze naturally potent insurgencies and intruders intolerant social dynamics.

As a recent real example of all said above, the reason US and Israel could not attack Iran, was not it’s defenses, but deterrences.

Samir replied on Saturday, December 20, 2008 01:32 PM 

mr. Air defence visit this web site to see airforce capabilities

http://rupeenews.com/2008/02/24/beyond-pakistani-made-jf-17-thunders-chinese-made-j-10s-will-paf-acquire-j-11s/

arsu replied on Saturday, December 20, 2008 02:53 PM 

Naveed, things are cooking up pretty fast and saying since it does’nt suit west or india so it won’t happen is a bit premature thinking. Today a report said that india is ready for war (these would be actually precision strikes if at all it erupts))and just waiting for some SIGNALS. I personally feel if india has to go for a war, there can’t be a time better than this one. Honestly speaking we were never so vulnerable as we are today. World has seen how weak we are when it comes to defending our territorial integrity from american drones or indian air force planes. We have got the most unpopular govt ever, headed by the most hated personality in Pakistan. To fight a war one needs most sophisticated weaponry, unwavering courage and towering morale. Everyone knows that the latter two elements are totally missing in our army these days. The reason being, they have been entangled in an unending conflict with their own people. They don’t know the enemy they are fighting against and what they are going to get by killing their own people. ISI is also under target, and as a result make and break is going on in it as well. With few billion dollars in the reserves, if someone imposes war on us, how far we can resist can easily be understood.

Mughal replied on Saturday, December 20, 2008 03:04 PM 

Today’s scenario is different then 48, 65 and 71. Which was dependant on numbers of peoples and hardware? Today in Pakistan an average person’s mind is totally changed, most peoples are really looking to confront as the things can’t be worse then now.

War can’t be fought with modern tools only; these are option which can be nullified with small utilities, clever skills and strategic planning... Can you guys imagine a super power is in War for last 7 years and looks where its economy is? Can any clever person highlight wisely that what has been achieved so far. Nothing, today if Pak remove 100 thousands troops from western borders. There will be no Krzai and NATO in coming one month.

India can never use any option like surgical strike etc…in case it does and Pak keep quite, next day there will be no Pakistan, can it be possible? In case Pakistan replies with a counter attack it will trigger a full scale war, its end will be a total end of the story.

Don’t forget in 65, MM Alam’s shooting down 5 Indian hunters fighters with his aged fighter plan. Today we are better trained, waked up, equipped with tools and skill.
We just need to find out a way to exit from US pressure which cant be achieved until our Army Gen leave the luxuries and start depending on small resources. We need a leader, there are good guys around but our army kills them as it’s a directive to them by US?

Some replied on Saturday, December 20, 2008 06:54 PM 

Pakistan fleet is old and they dont have any other than Chinese fighters. India has new eqpt, they are getting F16s that would be "top" of the line instead of run down pakistani F-16. Pakistan do need to upgrade there fleet and antiair guns. Today is no 65 or 77 and not all are MM Alams. Our generals and other elites have 2nd home in developed countries, they are full of corruption. India is different, they are nationalist unlike our ministers who tell there sons and daughters to go abroad, nothing left in Pakistan and we'll join you. Unless we act like nation, anyone can break and trust me Pakistan is not a nation. Do not get emotional and think over it a minute. Triangle of power India-America-Israel is after Pakistan, once Nukes are gone they would let Pakistan kill each other (thats what Pakistani's are good at, because they are not Pakistani's they are Pakhtoon, Punjabi, Baloch, Muhajir, Shia, Sunni, Neel topi, lal topi, sabaz topi and many more).

Air defence replied on Saturday, December 20, 2008 07:32 PM 

Dear Samir,
In breif, JF-17 has not yet replaced any existing squadron and at present is in evaluation phase.
J-10 with Pakistani configuration is not yet released although finances were organized by Musharraf long back when he reduced the number of F-16 and ordered J-10 instead. J-11 were never requested for Pakistan.
If war starts today we will have to fight without a.m. fighter.

Dear Naveed,
Problem is war will be fought in our land, it will be our infrastructure which will be destroyed and this is what Musharraf tried to explain us that we ought to keep the war out of our territory.
India and US have very much the capability to do limited strikes in Pakistan. Pakistan lacks strategic depth and cannot survive first attack that is why our defence lies in strike first, when we receive intelligence reports about enemy forces buildup, we must strike or risk losing our strategic assets.
When we compare indian attack with US we forget that US is fighting those wars with few thousand troops and is far away from his home land and results of war does not matter him much but in case india we are talking about ten times more troops and hardware in numbers and technologically most advance in the world (thanks to Israel).
Indian aircrafts came in to Pakistan and went back but not a single shot was fired by Pakistan, this is because we do not have the ability to lock them in night. Anti aircraft guns or various version of stingers are only effective when there is visual contact. Whereas indian aircrafts can see 300+ kilometer and can lock and fire targets from approx. 100km!
Pakistan will be attacked when ever world opinion is build. Bombay attacks were just the beginning, we should follow the response o india, world media and leadership of Pakistan.
Present govt. has clearly stated that they do not intend to use strategic weapons in case of Indian attack, infect they have even dissolved NSC.
In preset scenario Pakistan’s defence is nearly an impossible job.

Air defence replied on Saturday, December 20, 2008 07:48 PM 

I forgot to mention that govt. of Pakistan has declared in recent past that it does not have the ability to shoot down aircrafts flying at high altitude, where as all bombers strike from high altitude only dog fights take place at lower altitude, which will never take place.
Indians can acheive their objective by firing at Pakistan from a distance where they are INVISIBLE to our radars and eyes!

Interesting replied on Saturday, December 20, 2008 09:24 PM 

Interesting discussion! Well at least all of us agree on one thing that our so called leaders and politicians will be first to leave to Pakistan if the war happens.

Yes, if you have a strong air force you can cripple virtually any country’s infrastructure quickly. So let’s not worry about what we do not have. Let’s unite as a nation and prepare ourselves for a real war.

Look at what Hezbollah recently did to Israel. Yes Lebanon was hit hard but mighty Israel was exposed against that kind of war fare.

BERAAY FAKHAR SAY replied on Sunday, December 21, 2008 05:10 AM 

Where are Baghadadi Shair, (iraqi fouj commandar)= Pakistani Shair = "see eye a" Agents, who will be in pakistan and who will fight with india you know?

Our anemies are our rulers.

"Aik ghar main Chour Gus ayaaa, aurat nay jouta nakal liya or chour ko baga diya, marad nay "Bandouq" (Gun) apni chader main chupa lee jub chour chala gaya tou too mard nay kahaa kay dekha main kitana delayer houn main nay api bandouq (gun) bacha lee?

Humari fouj or humaray sarkar bee, jab amriceeee or indian humaray logoon ko mar kay chalay jain gay ey kay hean gay dekho hum nay ATOM bomb bacha liya hay BERAAY FAKHAR SAY

BACHAY QURBAN replied on Sunday, December 21, 2008 05:24 AM 

FOUJ SARKAR CHORE TO KIAYAA?

KHUF NA KER JANI, humray bachay is mulk pay QURBAN, ye ALLAH ka diya houwa mulk hay is KEE hafiazit bi wo hee kerway gaa.

Hum apnay bachay Qurban kerain gay INSHALLAH.

Shatan to herwaqat hee, bozdilli sekhata hay, leken ALLAH TO KEHATA HAY NAA KAY 'ALLAH HEE KAFI HAY" to humain ALLAH HEE KAFI HAY?

aa replied on Sunday, December 21, 2008 09:00 AM 

decide ker lain k izzat ki maut be-izzati ki zindagi say behatar hay...phir koi masla nahi...
aik do ya dus migs ya sukhoi's say kuch nahi honay wala...
it will take minutes to annihalate armored formations and air force basis. indian even american fleets will not survive a single nuclear strike...
we will not fight a limited war like indians and americans are thinking. hum ujaar k rukh dain gay...
azaan dunya mein phir bhi hoti rahay gi...mandir shayad koi na bachay....allah is the greatest

Ansari replied on Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:17 PM 

We have information that both Mr. Husain Haqqani and Mr. Husain Haroon, our ambassadors to the U.S. and U.N. respectively, were instructed by the Zardari-Gilani government to coordinate with the British and the American ambassadors to ensure that the name of former ISI chief Hameed Gul, in addition to other Pakistani citizens and organizations, are included in a Security Council resolution.

Abrar replied on Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:27 PM 

Jutt wehshee ho gia to gandasa nikal aiey gaa..... Gandasa nikal aiya to subb barbaad ho jai gaa,.....fanna ho jai gaa,..... wakkho wakkh ho jai gaa.

Jutt key pass abb atom bomb bhi hey, wo usay Mount Everest key ooper challaey gaa,......wo apney saath subb ko lay kay jai gaa.

Azher Syed Manchester replied on Sunday, December 21, 2008 02:03 PM 

"HAY JURMAY-ZIEFEY KEE DAWA MARGAY-MUFAJAT"
Mr. Zardari, if he suffers from impotency, can be treated with medicines but when he suffers from "Indicision" (which he has shown the symptoms in 100 days rule)it is incurable illness and consequently Pakistan will suffer from irrepairable loss. Is it possible to offer him "Golden Hand Shake" employing "sherry Rehman" in order to save Pakistan from total destruction.

Ali11 replied on Sunday, December 21, 2008 03:56 PM 

Jaisay Awam Waisay Hukamraan.

Its punishment of our acts. Think.

Allah Bless Pakistan

limo replied on Sunday, December 21, 2008 05:59 PM 

No Ali 11, few days ago someone outlined very interesting statistics here and rightly pointed out, that out of total 16 crore population, present hukmaran tola has only 2 crore votes to their credit.So simply its the system that needs to be criticised not the awam.

ASK replied on Monday, December 22, 2008 06:03 AM 

Mr Limo,

Is it the fault of SYSTEM that only 2 crore people voted. Most of the people who complain about the leaders and the SYSTEM did not vote. We have no right to criticize the leaders or the system if we did not even fulfill our first and foremost duty as a citizen to vote.

aa replied on Monday, December 22, 2008 06:41 AM 

indians donot have a reliable second strike capability. pakistan has superiority in missiles and bombs it self. like samar mubarak mand has repeatedly said recently benefit will b with side who strikes first and strikes massively, thus hoping to cripple other side counter strike capabilities. india wants to fight limited war led by airforce because they have at moment till next few months atleast till jf17 become functional have advantage in bvr. we should immediately expand war and use our missiles and bombs because we have superiority there... war should be fought from position of our own strength, not from position which suites our enemy......
if we just decide this all american,israeli indian pressure will vanish with out war any way,,, i think

akhtar replied on Monday, December 22, 2008 07:29 AM 

Our president must ask to USA. Are you our friend or indian's friend?
may be we need to import, mahmood ahmedi nijad for only 1 speach.

Who will say to west and israiel?

Every thing will cool like siachine?

limo replied on Monday, December 22, 2008 12:20 PM 

Dear ASK, does this system provide you any slim opportunity to select a RIGHT GUY.Offcourse not, the RIGHT GUY can't afford to spend crores in order to first purchase the ticket and then contest. The only choice given to this awam is to elect one out of two BAD GUYS.And 14 crore is that silent majority which fully realises the inherent flaws of this system hence outrightly denounces it.So its only the SYSTEM...
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