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do business with the god,

(53154)
   nadeem
Saturday, May 23, 2009 08:05 PM 
Reply: >
dear all,
Although this is a storey of non muslim but it is ey opener.

Colgate wa travelling to Americaand on ship a priest asked him the reason for his travel.He replied that to do trade and make money.Priest told his why not to trade with the GOd.God he inquired but How.He said whatever you earn contribut a percentage towards charity.Colgate became a multi billion corporation and yet pay a lot towards charity.Pls invest in your future , if you believe in life after death. Start small and see the difference your selves.
Either case it is win win situation.
pls advise any reputable organization to support other then government as we have no trust on them.
i already paid to Eidhi / imran / Khidmat foundation.Who more
Habib replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 06:59 AM 

I fixed some money in national saving for a Bewa who will be getting regular income from Behbood fund for 10 years, I think this is better than off and on help. Plus Govt is paying good amount at this time.
At least one thought
Atif Latif replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 07:56 AM 

Brother Habib

The National Savings or any form of bank's income is Rib'a (Sood) which is Haraam for Muslims. Please re-consider your decision.

I know there are different fatawas from different schools of thought but then we should act upon our beloved Prohpet's (Peace Be Upon Him) directions.

Prophet Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him) said that leave the thing which put you in doubt and accept that one that gets you free of doubt.

May Allah show all of us the right and true path...Ameen
Ejaz replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 09:13 AM 

Atif Sb! Just don't tell the Fatwaa only. You may suggest some other alternative to that what Habib sb is doing.
limo replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 09:18 AM 

Habib, what Atif is saying is perfect.Though your intention is good but the money going to that bewa is not clean at all.Better calculate your annual zakat and give that amount to her.Thus you will earn dual reward from Allah SWT.May Allah SWT guide all of us to the righteous track.Ameen
Khadim e Muslim replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 09:28 AM 

Mr. Atif and Limo, good work.

Jazak Allah
Habib replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 09:46 AM 

Dear Brothers In my opinion corporate interest is not equvalent to Riba, I have reached this Conclusion studying all the verses o Quran regarding Riba as well as studying modren economics as well as references of many scholors.
water and petrol are not equal, though both are liquids, both evoporate and both are put in car [though in different tanks], In my understanding people who consider Riba Equvalent to corporate interest are ignorant and need knowledge of both Islam nad modren economics. Corporate interest is welfare based product and Riba is 100% exploitation there are many differences between them.
People who dont understand and are in Doubt or "Shak" they should better avoid this.
Atif Latif replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:21 AM 

Brother Habib

As far I have read the Glorious Quran, there is no distinction or grading has made for the Interest/Rib'a/Sood. It is forbidden without any classification. And majority of the prominent Islamic scholors (not just the illeterate Mullahs) are in agreement that it is haraam. Even the one who gave verdit in favour of some sort of "Islamic Banking", will never take that "Profit (to me the other name of Sood/Riba/Interest) if they are offerred the same.

My job was to convey the message. It is up to you to follow or not.

May Allah guide us towards the true and just path! Ameen!
Ahsan replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:25 AM 

I agree with Habib. One more thing, "Behbood" which is a high earning Govt. saving scheme is actually a welfare scheme. This (Behbood) should have been done by Govt. thro Bait Al Maal or from its own sources. Since Govt does not want to do bahbood at its own, Govt do this welfare through savings account (to get money from us), which they should have been doing without asking fixed deposit (principal amount). In my opinion it is Behbood as the name says. It should not be considered as Riba which Govt is supposed to do in any case. Placing large amounts of deposits we are actually sharing the Govt.'s Responsibiilties which is a good thing.
Q replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:36 AM 

I think there is no probelm in it. even it is serving dual purpose, you helping govt with funds which can be used on welfare and whatever you get in return you are spending on a noble cause. I feel this issue is beyond discussion as the return is not been utilized by a person who has kept the fix deposit. it is being used for weldfare and there shd be no question to it
Habib replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:37 AM 

I understand and appricate your concern, my point is Riba and Corporate interest are not types of each other rather entirely different things. for example
One is decreasing inflation other is increasing it.
One is helping people other is sucking blood.
One is helping Government to fulfill its commitments and welfare projects other is causing concentration of money in certain circle and creating threat to Govt.
there are many other differences
SHAHID replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:04 AM 

Dear All, The sood is haram is because if you are taking sood you are economically killing the many persons RIZQ and Government is not doing any welfare work from that money you deposited as Government is still running on foreign aid how it do welfare works??????
A.M.BUTT replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:11 AM 

Mr Habib,

You did a very good job and "God" will give you (Ajjer) forget other thing if your objective and intention is to help a "Bewa" no need to ask the quiations as you cannot convince, specially pakistanies.
ABD replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 12:05 PM 

For God sake let encourage if some one is going to do good job for humanity and do criticize like typical street scholar.

Habib well done do not worry on these NEEM MULLAHS and keep going, my all wishes and prayer are with you.
Atif Latif replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 01:10 PM 

Below are all Ayayt For Riba in the Glorian Quran (I got it from this forum as some other brother posted this in a similar discussion)
May God give us guidence

“ God condemns riba, and blesses charities. God dislikes every disbeliever, guilty. Lo! those who believe and do good works and establish worship and pay the poor-due, their reward is with their Lord and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. O you who believe, you shall observe God and refrain from all kinds of riba, if you are believers. If you do not, then expect a war from God and His messenger. But if you repent, you may keep your capitals, without inflicting injustice, or incurring injustice. If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a charity, it would be better for you, if you only knew. (Qur'an 2:276-280) ”
“ O you who believe, you shall not take riba, compounded over and over. Observe God, that you may succeed. (Qur'an 3:130) ”
“ And for practicing riba, which was forbidden, and for consuming the people's money illicitly. We have prepared for the disbelievers among them painful retribution. (Qur'an 4:161) ”
“ The riba that is practiced to increase some people's wealth, does not gain anything at God. But if people give to charity, seeking God's pleasure, these are the ones who receive their reward many fold. (Qur'an 30:39)
“ That they took riba, though they were forbidden and that they devoured men’s substance wrongfully – We have prepared for those among men who reject faith a grievous punishment (Qur'an 4:161) ”
“ Those who charge riba are in the same position as those controlled by the devil's influence. This is because they claim that riba is the same as commerce. However, God permits commerce, and prohibits riba. Thus, whoever heeds this commandment from his Lord, and refrains from riba, he may keep his past earnings, and his judgment rests with God. As for those who persist in riba, they incur Hell, wherein they abide forever (Qur'an 2:275) ”

It is very clear from above-mentioned Ayats that Riba is haram. Please read the last one, you will see the correlation between the "Corporate" thing mentioned in brother Habib's email and the "Commerce" mentioned the last Ayat.

Please do not go to your own interpretations. Glorious Quran is very clearn.

May all guide us to the true path. Ameen
Hamid, Toronto replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 02:19 PM 

It is very sad to see all of posts about Riba etc but we are ignoring Habib’s good intentions here. I am not really impressed with Limo, Atif, and Shahid posts. I would like to see some practical thoughts here.

Limo, Atif, Shahid, do you have some alternatives to meet Habib’s good objectives, if you do then please share with us. I always recall old 10th grade poem “Abu Bin Udahim”, the nutshell of this poem was:
“GOD LOVES THOSE WHO LOVE/HELP HIS UMMA/ PEOPLE”

Yes May Allah guide us to choose the right /true path!
Mohamed Rafique replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 02:42 PM 

I appreciate Hamid Sahib from Toronto.
I have noticed, if you write single word on interest, you will find hundred mulla like Atif, Limo etc. etc. In my practical life i have seen many such people who have kept their savings in fixed deposits but if there is any talk on interest, they will talk more against it.
Any how, such people only critisize and they have no solution.
Due to such people we are away from Islam which shows the bright path to live in world because Islam never come across to the progress and new thoughts of the intelligent people.
No solutioon but you will find now how many mullas will come on site and critisize without helping any needy person arround them.
Ahmed replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 07:36 PM 

Dear Muslim brothers,
it has been lot said about riba and sood, I am not any scholar and dont want to comment on this subject as it is required a lot more wisdom and extreme care to pass any comment on any qurani verse. However, please go through the verses Mr.Atif Latif has quoted and you will observe that where ever riba or sood quoted there is clearly mentioned some injustice or something which may cause problems for the people whom you giving money.
Actually, it is our ulmas duty to find out some solutions to create some aveneus for common people to save them money to live a happy life with some extra income.
Ahmed replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 07:37 PM 

Dear Muslim brothers,
it has been lot said about riba and sood, I am not any scholar and dont want to comment on this subject as it is required a lot more wisdom and extreme care to pass any comment on any qurani verse. However, please go through the verses Mr.Atif Latif has quoted and you will observe that where ever riba or sood quoted there is clearly mentioned some injustice or something which may cause problems for the people whom you giving money.
Actually, it is our ulmas duty to find out some solutions to create some aveneus for common people to save them money to live a happy life with some extra income.
guest************** replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 07:38 PM 

Dear Muslim brothers,
it has been lot said about riba and sood, I am not any scholar and dont want to comment on this subject as it is required a lot more wisdom and extreme care to pass any comment on any qurani verse. However, please go through the verses Mr.Atif Latif has quoted and you will observe that where ever riba or sood quoted there is clearly mentioned some injustice or something which may cause problems for the people whom you giving money.
Actually, it is our ulmas duty to find out some solutions to create some aveneus for common people to save them money to live a happy life with some extra income.
Ahmed guest************** replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 07:43 PM 

sorry i posted one comment three time due to net problem
Ali3 replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:03 PM 

Everybody is talking about riba, sood, interest, but nobody points out that this talk of riba is in relation to what? It is understood that Pak Rupee is involved. Therefore the whole sentence must be mentioned, that "riba on Pak rupee is haram", to which i disagree.

Pak rupee is not an Islamic product. There is no formula, calculation, creteria about it's creation, usage, printing, etc. That's why there is so much inflation and devluation. Islamic currency is gold and silver coins, on which riba is haram. If the price of a kilo of wheat or meat etc is calculated according to the value of gold and silver, there is 0% inflation during the past 1400 years. Even if we want to have our own currency instead of gold and sliver coins, there should be a criteria, some kind of principles to follow to regulate this currency. For example, if i have to give you money for goods or services, or give you a salary, what do i do? I just print some notes and hand over to you. Does that make any sense? These days there is not even printing. Currency is digitally created out of nothing! Without any guiding principles. Non-Islamic countries follow the Islamic guidelines more than Pakistan, such as a basic rule of creating only as much currency as much as real wealth inside an economic entity (like Pakistan) is created.

Suppose there is 10 Billion Pak rupee inside the economic system. Let's say for example the weight of this 10Billion is 10 kilos. If the government prints 1 Billion more, the weight will not become 11 kilos. Now the combined weight of 11 Billion is 10 Kilos. The weight of individual units is redistributed. Or, imagine a boat is floating in water in a bucket. If you put more weight in the boat, the boat will not sink, the water level will come up. Yes, some minor amount the economy (the boat, the people) will bear the weight too, because some wealth is also being created all the time.

Another important factor is the fractional reserve banking system is haram. It's not only haram but it's the most important tool of the anti-Islamic forces. ALL the Islamic banks in the world practice this kind of banking. Therefore, instead of leasing out our imans to muftis, it's better not to be hypocritical by opting for these so called "Islamic" banks.

I agree there are guidelines in Islam about everything. For example, there are guidelines about drinking. Like, drink in three sips. drink while sitting, drink with Bismillah, look inside first to check impurities, etc. But most important is that what is being drunk should be Islamically allowable (halal). This discussion on riba, especially people who prefer only Islamic banking, is like saying, "I will drink alcolol in three sips".

I agree with Habib and others that behbood is a welfare incentive for the citizens by the state. That's why also it is exempt from tax too, and very little pre-encashment penalty. However, the rates they offered few months ago have come down now from 16.8 to 16.1%

Ali3 replied on Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:28 PM 

Explanation 3rd para: Compare "water" to people, "boat" to the economy. Some weight the economy will take too, so now the weight will become 10.1kilos, but most of the weight the people (water in the bucket in my example) will have to bear because the weight (value) of their individual units will become less.

According to government statistics there is 30% inflation. This figure does not mean that there was 30% one time inflation. It means that it is yearly. When the government says now there is deflation, or that now the inflation has come down to 25%, it does not mean that now prices are become less. It means that now the prices are increasing at the rate of 25% instead of 30%. Then there is the devaluation phenomenon.

Only in one year there was 40% devaluation. How can anybody profit (exploit) by taking 16 or 17%, along with taking the risk of further losing the value because his money will be tied up for some years?
Atif Latif replied on Monday, May 25, 2009 05:02 AM 

**References from Hadiths***

Hazrat Jabir radiyallahu anhu has reported that the Messenger of Allah sallallahu alaihe wasallm cursed the devourer of usury, its payer, its scribe and its two witnesses. He also said that they were equal (in sin).

(Muslim)
Hazrat Abu Hurairah radiyallahu anhu reported that the Holy Prophet sallallahu alaihe wasallm said: A time will certainly come over the people when none will remain who will not devour usury. If he does not devour it, its vapour will overtake him.
(Ahmed, Abu Dawood, Nisai, Ibn Majah.)
Hazrat Abu Hurairah radiyallahu anhu reported that the Messenger of Allah sallallahu alaihe wasallm said : Usury has got seventy divisions. The easiest division of them is a man marrying his mother.
(Ibn Majah)
Hazrat Abu Hurairah radiyallahu anhu reported that the Messenger of Allah sallallahu alaihe wasallm said: I came across some people in the night in which I was taken to the heavens. Their stomachs were like houses wherein there were serpents, which could be seen from the front of their stomachs. I asked: O Gabriel! Who are these people? He replied these are those who devoured usury.
(Ahmed, Ibn Majah)
Hazrat Ali radiyallahu anhu reported that he heard the Messenger of Allah sallallahu alaihe wasallm cursing the devourer of usury, its giver, its scribe and one who refuses to give Zakat and he used to forbid mourning.
(Nisai)
Hazrat Umar bin Al-Khattab radiyallahu anhu reported: the last of what was revealed was the verse of usury. The Messenger of Allah sallallahu alaihe wasallm was taken and he had not explained it to us. So, give up usury and doubt.
(Ibn Majah, Darimi)
Hazrat Abdullah bin Hanzalah radiyallahu anhu (who was washed by the angels) reported that the Messenger of Allah sallallahu alaihe wasallm said: A dirham of usury that a man devours and he knows is greater than 36 fornications.
(Ahmed, Darqutni)

Baihaqi reported from Ibn Abbas radiyallahu anhu in shuabul iman. He added and said: (as for) one whose flesh has grown out of unlawful food, the fire is more suitable for him.

After narrating all these verses from the Qur’an and relating all the Ahaadith it is apparent to us that interest could never be legal and halal. How could anybody even take the time out to think about a matter in which Allah has declared war on the user and his Beloved Prophet sallallahu alaihe wasallm has cursed him? As sensible people we can understand that what our creator has chosen for us is for our own prosperity only.

No one is discouraging the noble cause of supporting the widows, orphans, and poors. But the problem is the way this is being done in case of brother Habib. If we accept the logic that some of the other brothers have given in this dicussion, we also have to accept that someone can start a casino or a brothel and fix the income to support the needy. Will we accept this? Of course not. There are many other "right" ways to do the same noble cause, i.e. buy a shop and fix the rent for the widow, help her to setup a small household business so that she will earn her living, buy a car and give it to rent-a-car people and fix the income for the widow etc.
Ali3 replied on Monday, May 25, 2009 05:57 AM 

Atif Latif: You have failed to address the points that I have raised.
Irshad replied on Monday, May 25, 2009 06:00 AM 

My age is above sixty. in this life time i have met and interacted with thousands and thousand of people. The best and the most sincere people i have found are those people who don't impose anything on others.I don't what atif latif intend to gain.
i fully agree with Mr Habib all logic reason and vision supports his logic.
Ali3 replied on Monday, May 25, 2009 06:16 AM 

Relevant portion of Jinnah's Speech on the Occasion of the opening ceremony of State Bank of Pakistan on July 1, 1948.

"I shall watch with keenness the work of your Research Organization in evolving banking practices compatible with Islamic ideals of social and economic life. The economic system of the West has created almost insoluble problems for humanity and to many of us it appears that only a miracle can save it from disaster that is now facing the world. It has failed to do justice between man and man and to eradicate friction from the international field. On the contrary, it was largely responsible for the two world wars in the last half century.

The Western world, in spite of its advantages of mechanization and industrial efficiency is today in a worse mess than ever before in history. The adoption of Western economic theory and practice will not help us in achieving our goal of creating a happy and contented people.

We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of happiness and prosperity of mankind."
SHAHID replied on Monday, May 25, 2009 12:21 PM 

Dear ALL respected brothers, Mr. Atif Latif has finished the conversation finally in his last paragraph. (aqal mand kay liyay ashaara hee kaafi hay) May Allah show us the righ path. Ameen.
limo replied on Monday, May 25, 2009 03:42 PM 

Atif, even you pull your ass upto ears you cannot convince the individuals who favout this curse, as they don't want to.However i fully appreciate your effort and admire your keen undestanding of the subject.May Allah SWT give all of us Hidayah and correct understanding of Deen.Ameen
Hamid, Toronto replied on Monday, May 25, 2009 04:42 PM 

Limo, I thought you are mature person but I have to reconsider my decision. Honestly speaking, I don’t to open a cane of worms here or either I don’t want to show my so-called religious knowledge here. I don’t thing so anybody is looking for religious preaching on this forum. Please please leave us alone, we have suffered enough and still suffering from so called religious scholars.

All we were asking that please share alternatives thoughts to achieve brother Habib’s good intentions. Limo, if you read the complete e-mail thread, you will find out only few useful lines from Atif:

“ There are many other "right" ways to do the same noble cause, i.e. buy a shop and fix the rent for the widow, help her to setup a small household business so that she will earn her living, buy a car and give it to rent-a-car people and fix the income for the widow etc. “

Limo, I would like humbly request to you please don’t use bad words on this educated forum.

May Allah give us Hadiat to follow the right path and give you a courage to understand other people' feeling as well!
Isloo replied on Monday, May 25, 2009 10:27 PM 

Riba is Haraam,,no question about that,,,But Why do we only remember Riba when it comes to Islamic Laws,

Islamic Laws are for a welfare state, A widow must not need to to worry about her source of food and other basic necessaties in a pure Islamic state,,,and still if she decides to go for Riba,,its haraam...

example,,a widow, with no source of income and does not know business,,,, after husband`s death,, who has to worry that she can only depend on life time savings of Rs 80Lakh ( 1 Lakh Dollar,,,and after one year,,,finds that its only equal to ( 80 thousand dollar,,devaluation took place),,then,,,is the state doing some welfare ?????
and if This saving scheme is haram for her,,,what should she do,,,,eat out her savings and then ???????
Does our state offer a solution,,,like countries in west who offer "Unemployment Allowance" to all needy citizens,,,,If they then take Riba,,,its surely haraamm,,,,,,
Opinion replied on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 06:05 AM 

Mr. Irshad, This is very painful to say that after spending 60 years if you still thinking that to do a good work in the result of bad work is just ok then sorry to say please recheck or have a second look of your 60 years.
Opinion replied on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 07:03 AM 

"Limo, I would like humbly request to you please don’t use bad words on this educated forum".

Hamid, you are in Toronto and can speak English well, you might be having high profile at your back but it doesn't mean that you are educated but real educate is one in Muslims who have better knowledge of Islam and I am sure you are not one of them who cannot differentiate Haram and Halal even in the evidence of Ayat-e-Qurani and Ahadees Mubarka.
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