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Automatic System,

(53600)
Saturday, June 27, 2009 01:21 PM 

Dear CYM and other friends Aslam O alikum,

appologies about off topic but since this forum hold experienced personnel in Pakistan I wanted to seek your advice,

Basically I try not to advertise but some years back in made a thought to share certain money for my needy relatives and other personnel, my style so far has been to give the money and they fill in their need, however what i been thinking that under this option, some people have continous requirment and this is really a short term solution.

Been thinking about long term and try to setup some small scale business where say i can invest some intial money and than the profit of this businss can go to these people on monthly basis, please suggust ideas

considering i am overseas have relatives who can over sea and since i am alone at this time i can also put limited money, may be 100 to 200 lack or some thing around that.....

will appericate your ideas

From Qatar replied on Saturday, June 27, 2009 02:39 PM 

National saving centres are best.
Although it is so called INTEREST but again according to PAKISTAN finacial uncertainty and fraudlant situations in pulic / private business, National Saving Centres are blessings for perpetual incimes. Actually you will be helping pakistan by investing in National Defence Saving Certificates.
By the way I m doing the same. I invested some money in NSC to fullfill some perpetual / cotinious needs some relatives.

Jazi replied on Saturday, June 27, 2009 02:49 PM 

Appriciate your noble cause that’s why thought of pitching in my humble opinion. As an overseas Pakistani you must have had traveled in different airlines, always they announce your oxygen mask will automatically drop down first you put on your self then you help others.
Same thing apply to this wild wild east. Please make sure your investment is safe enough even you can help less people no problem but the source of help should be in your control and recoverable.
Keep your eyes open while doing any transaction in Pakistan relatives are the first people to be careful of.
I don’t believe in fix deposits for the religious reasons but due to your cause and reasoning of security and safety would recommend for that. Defense saving or some other NFC or type of Islamic bonds can be considered www.mizanbank.com.
And then otherwise you can buy 3 X 10 marla houses in some walled community like valecia, eden, divine or DHA homes on your own name and let someone manage it and rent from this can be 25K +- from each housing unit which can be utilized for your purpose.
Your saving will be there recoverable when you need it not much depreciation

Relatives happy
God happy
You happy.

Jamal replied on Saturday, June 27, 2009 03:36 PM 

Dear Irf,

I appreciate your idea to help ur relatives, National Savings is the best option in Pakistan. Please deposit the amount in ur own name and DONT INVOLVE ANY RELATIVE IN ANY INVESTMENT. People are very selfish nowadays. Just continue to pay from the profit.

God bless you all who have a kind heart.

Hamid, Toronto replied on Saturday, June 27, 2009 03:55 PM 

Irf G,

Your cause is noble. I really appreciate it from bottom of my heart. In near future, I am planning to settle in Pakistan and will start some work on these projects.
For time being, I would suggest to go for fix deposit scheme in Islamic bank. You will get some peace of mind from religious point of view.

Please share you contact information with me if you can. My email address is .
I don’t want to say some big words but Inshallah will work on these projects in near future.

May Allah shower his blessing on you and your family!

Hamid, Toronto replied on Saturday, June 27, 2009 04:49 PM 

Irf Sahib,

Your post has compelled me to share my version of story I was financially supporting one of my close relative. After few years, I noticed that they will be depended upon me for a long period of time. At that time their elder son passed Matric Exam with good marks and they were deciding to put him in factory work job. I sit with them and told them, I will cover his all the expenses during his study. After six years, by bless of Allah, he passed his Bsc Honor in Computer Sc from GC. As of today, he is making 75 K rupees from his job Not only he is supporting his own family but also helping others.

My point is if you can find out permanent source of income for them then this will not only ease your obligations but also make them financially self independent.

Naveed Yaseen replied on Saturday, June 27, 2009 05:03 PM 

I believe the sustained direct help (i.e. like 'Benazir Income Support', pun intended) is often counter-productive in long term for following reasons,,,,

• It leaves their economic productivity un-utilized for society.
• It leaves them vulnerable when this direct help stops for whatever reason.
• It damages their natural instincts of survival, like confidence, determination, motivation of hardwork and stepping ahead. Like a birdling who never learned flying because he was persistently spoon-fed in nest.
• Perhaps most importantly, it either kills the self-respect, or keeps hurting it as long as its alive. Both situations are not good for individual and society.

So one should avoid direct help except in a life-threatening need.

One should rather try to help one stand on their own feet. Unless they are very old or disabled, perhaps a better approach may be like following,,,

1) Get them some training/experience in some trade suitable for them. Like get them a short-course and/or internship with someone already in that trade. This doesn't necessarily mean they have to be educated or literate to get training or do internship.

2) After they have learned the trade, perhaps in a few months, provide them capital to start their own business in that trade, no matter how small that business may be.


Some examples of small businesses where one can make halal living without too much capital or too much training

• livestock farming (dairy, poultry, goat/sheep)
• vegetables farming (its labor intensive but valuable, a family can survive in 2-3 acres)
• small shop ('phatta' or 'khokha') in some busy bazar or flea market
• small part-time food place ('dhaba'), like fast-food or desserts
• transportation (like rickshaw, taxi, van, 'pickup' etc)
• distribution (like SIMs, phones, electric supplies, auto parts, tools, basically any 'china maal')

If a person is young, has technical instincts and has to immediately start earning, get them some vocational short-course and/or internship in some evergreen technical trade like IT, machining, molding, printing, electric, plumbing, welding, auto, refrigeration etc. And then after a few months of experience get them tools/machines for their own setup.

Irf replied on Saturday, June 27, 2009 05:14 PM 

Thank you all for your valuable feed back, i agree with most of your comments, from what i am seeing in term for summary, we all agree that direct help where people start depending on monthly input can be bad in long term.

especially in our culture you may end up spoliing relationship if they expect you to do it on monthly basis for ever.

I liked some of the ideas where by a small cash up front can help start small business, and after sometime the peson can give back the interst free loan and same money hopefully if i do not need can be used for someone else

another recent example I have used for my Uncle (my father's brother) is lended around 2.5 lack to my uncle so he can get visa for his son, once he go to saudi InshAllah he will get job and can return me the money in an year or less time.

however, i hope it work fine but in past i have given money to my relatives on some what similar loan and now they are not returning me, one uncle of mine needed 50 K rs for deposit to send his son to cyprus, was for one month loan, now it is oen year and 3 months, son is gone for few months and now i am getting promises.... this kind of hurt

Hopefully Allah will forgive me as i am not trying to compalin and share but anyways this should not let us down as with my experience Allah has given ten times or lot of times more... for whatever little i have givne in Allah's way

Naveed Yaseen replied on Saturday, June 27, 2009 05:47 PM 

Since we are on topic, I want to share something seeking ideas, opinions, if any.

I am in process to setup, in coming few weeks, an arrangement to facilitate knowledge transfer in our society by utilizing latest technologies. Volunteers and donors would be welcome, but regardless it will still happen at some scale, Inshallah.

It would be setup like following.

• Printed media (like books, magazines) would be scanned in graphics digital media
• Lectures of experienced professionals would be recorded in audio-visual digital media

The lectures may be recorded in existing educational institutions during routine proceedings, so may not cost much additional efforts, time and resources. Government permission may be sought to record lectures in public institution, or intellectual rights may be bought from private educational institutions or professionals.


Once the valuable knowledge is recorded in digital media and processed, it would be replicated and distributed by digital means. The digital means of distribution by today’s technology may be,,,,
• ISP intranets (for any digital media useful for general public)
• cable operators (for audio-visual media useful for general public)
• internet (for scanned books, and may be audio-visual if advertisement sponsors are available)
• DVDs, flash cards and portable hard-disks through existing knowledge media retailers (like book-sellers or software vendors)

Most of above distribution means, once seeded by volunteer effort, may afterwards sustain by market forces. If and when general public feels it useful and demands it, then the cable operators, ISPs, book-sellers may have to avail those in competition pressure.


The productivity of this setup comes mainly from today’s information technology, which when compared to existing knowledge transfer processes, has,,,,
• less costly production processing, most of processing after physical sensor (scanner, camera, mic) can be automated.
• more efficient compression
• less costly media (less than $0.20 per GB, equivalent of around 15,000 pages of traditional books)
• easily reusable media
• less costly replication (thousands of scanned pages or AV minutes get copied in a fraction of second)
• less costly transportation (by digital networks or compact media)
• more efficient utilization (by quick indexing and searching)

Irf replied on Saturday, June 27, 2009 07:49 PM 

Naveed Sahib, good idea plus it will be Sawab as well, since you will be spreading Ilam, let me know if i can help in any way to be part of it, i also have IT knowledge etc

Hamid, Tortono replied on Saturday, June 27, 2009 08:46 PM 

Naveed Bahi,
I would like to be a part of this project. Please keep in touch and you do have my contact info.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts here.

Abdullah Qureshi replied on Saturday, June 27, 2009 11:40 PM 

Naveed bhai,

Just to help your effort and give you some ideas:
1. Check out Khan Academy:
http://www.khanacademy.org . It has some good educational videos.

2. UC Berkely (and other universities) upload their lectures online. A person can attend entire courses online!

3. "The Teaching Company" has interseting audio courses. Though I haven't listened to any of them, a friend of mine is crazy about them.

4. When you scan books, please make sure that you don't violate any copyrights. In Pakistan, we hurt ourselves by not having effective protection of Intellectual property .... it stifles innovative thinking and work. Just a brotherly advice.

Best of luck and may Allah SWT bless your efforts!

SultanTipu replied on Sunday, June 28, 2009 07:35 AM 

May Allah rewards all of you for your good efforts.I think what brother Hamid Toronto did is the best.All of you remember the story we read in primary school;
A man came to prophet SAW and asked for help.Prophet SAW asked him did he have anything.He said just a pot to drink water and a blanket.Prophet SAW took it,sold it and bought an axe for him.And told him to go and work with it and earn his living.
When we help someone let us try to keep the receiver's dignity and "Izzet-e-nafs" intact.
Only by following the footsteps of Prophet SAW and his rightly guided companions can we earn reward from Allah.He will except the methods used or endorsed by his messanger SAW ONLY.

Naveed Yaseen replied on Sunday, June 28, 2009 04:54 PM 

Dear brothers Irf and Hamid, thanks for your intent of cooperation. Inshallah in a few days I'll setup a forum with detailed plan and discussions to refine/modify that and execute accordingly.

Brother Qureshi, the links were indeed very helpful. Although these slightly differ in some business and technical aspects of what we want to achieve, but still very helpful for whats common in both. Thanks.

limo replied on Sunday, June 28, 2009 05:47 PM 

Part 1
Naveed, off course keeping few exceptions aside, delivering money like that can never be encouraged specially on long term basis. But remember the amount given to each family under this specific program is just peanuts and assuming that it will make them addict or easygoing is not right at all. In fact they need a lot lot more than that even just to survive and would never be dependent on that amount only. The solution you have proposed is ok to some extent (a temporary resort), but can not be suggested on larger scale. The avenues you have chosen are extremely low profile ones and in today’s world with fast paced technological developments, a country like ours cannot afford to spoil its precious youth like this. We already had an experiment of “Yellow Cab” scheme which faced severe criticism. It looked as if whole nation has been made taxi drivers. The best way to engage our youth and extract maximum out of them is through setting up industrial zones. Here you can induct from a labor to highly skilled individual. This is the work force that will be productive in the real sense and eventually prosper the nation.
Lastly, i really admire your innovative thoughts as you look serious in doing something productive.

Naveed Yaseen replied on Monday, June 29, 2009 01:00 AM 

> the amount given to each family under this specific program is just peanuts

If this is referring Benazir Income Support Program, I believe its a cover to steal public money for private interests of parliamentarians. It would go in personal pockets of worst most parliamentarians, or in their own voters' pockets for nice most parliamentarians ('Halwai Ki Dukan Peh Nana Ji Ki Fatehah'). Otherwise it doesn't make sense to allocate 70 billion for this program but just 7 billion for healthcare (we loss hundreds of thousands of lives each year just for lacking very basic healthcare). 'Be-Nazir' indeed.

ehtesham ulhaq replied on Monday, June 29, 2009 03:30 AM 

Charity begins at home. This is what PPP is doing now. They are trying to buy out 7 million voters through this program, this is called "Chit bhi apni Pat bhi apni or anta mere baap ka". They will buy 7 million voters and if any future coming Government will stop this ill wished program then PPP will use these 7 million voters as a tool to destable the next Government also they think by buying these 7 million voters PPP can not be removed from the scene. This is what ZA Bhutto issued Ration Depots, Cement Agencies etc. etc. to Jiyalas to keep them loyal so that they can save him in bad times but what the world saw? He was killed by a dictator and no Jiyala came to rescue him. They did not learned from history and trying to play the old dirty trick.

If Zardari and PPP is really interested to start any welfare program they should do it from the left over wealth(stolen from the people which caused these people so much misery and reduced them to baggers) of Benazir Bhutto and Zardari, Bilawal and all the PPP sympathizers and leaders should contribute to it. Only then we will accept that PPP leaders and workers really love Benazir, and the people like me would love to contribute to this program even beyond their limits.

Comments replied on Wednesday, July 1, 2009 07:40 AM 

God bless you, Mr. N.Yaseen.
I'm so glad that there are still some Pakistanis like you.

FROM MESAIEED QATAR replied on Friday, July 3, 2009 07:37 PM 

DEAR BAHI FROM QATAR

I JUST DRAG UR ATTENTION ABOUT INTEREST ( RIBA).
IT IS ALWAYS RIBA IN ANY CONDITON. KINDLY GO CONTACT ANY SCHOLAR THAT THERE IS NO MEANING OF HELP ANYONE BY RIBA.
HELP THE PEOPLE UR OWN MONEY.
WE HAVE REPLY EVERY THING WHAT WE HAVE DONE IN OUR LIFE.
I HOPE U DONOT MIND AND THINK OVER IT.
REMOVE MONEY FROM NATIONAL SAVING CERTIFICATE.
>