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   Islamic banking
Friday, June 25, 2010 10:41 AM 
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Dear Moderator
Please keep this message for a while to clear doubts of all the participants of the forum regarding Riba and Islamic banking
Pakitruth replied on Friday, June 25, 2010 10:58 AM 

OHHH my God

can these all big tummy Molveen can present a system which can be implemented as a substitute??????????

i think they are angry because not given a "Hadiyya" by Islamic banks to get their approval............

they dont have a practical example or implementation but only Fatwas
Mohsin replied on Friday, June 25, 2010 11:56 AM 

If you are extrtemly thirsty and someone gives you a cold and beautiful and tasty drink with poison in it and you know it, would you say that "I am going to drink it. If anyone has some thing without poison give it to me now otherwise I am going to drink the poison" No sain person would do so

So why do we insist of having Riba based system even if we do not have Islamic system. Riba based system will take us to Hell anyway. The advocate of Riba bases system are mostly rich which can survive without Riba also
hafeez replied on Friday, June 25, 2010 03:23 PM 

Do you thing that you are not living in hell? certainly this is hell with or without riba. Riba is misunderstood by conservate and lower calibre strata and clergy based on dis infdormation which makes our contradiction deeper. Can Mr. Mohsin narates any riba free society any single example, go through books sive all available resources to you and reply so that to reach the trught.
Mohsin replied on Friday, June 25, 2010 04:49 PM 

Dear Hafeez sb The history of Muslim rule all over the world till the world wars (I and II) is the history with no Riba. It is the fall of Muslim Empire and introduction of modern banking in the start of 20th century which has started this curse. We short sighted so called Muslims believe that we can't live without Riba based banking system. We always forget that Allah Taala is ruling this world and not the Jews banks.

A small smoke from a mountain in Iceland stopped all the Aviation industry in Europe.
An oil spill from Bay of Mexico in US polluted the Ocean of US causing Billion Dollar loss.
similarly other examples are the signs from Allah Taala that whatever we do there is always some force to ruin it, so why dont we follow the orders of Allah Taala.
In Pakistan, in our rural areas, where most of the transactions are on cash therefore it is not effected by Riba based banking like that of Dubai. Still in our rural areas we find Riba based system, so how can we say that there is no riba free society. First practice on yourself and then expect Riba free environment. If everyone leaves Riba free system then it will be wiped out of our country Insha Allah
isloo replied on Friday, June 25, 2010 11:02 PM 

I totally agree that Interest based system is Haram,,No questions. But do we have a society like Hazrat Umar`s where none wanted zakat...

I have been through a situation where there was no one in our family to earn and we had to put our savings in bank and grew up for 5 years on interest earnings, I remember that in those days, none from our family came in front to help us, although everybody knew where we were earning from...Can anyone give a fatwa on relatives to help those in need,,,,does it need a fatwa ??? for heaven`s sake,,,,in a society where there are so many moral crimes, u are after interest-based system,,but never think about what caused this system ???

I see so many people on this forum from overseas,,asking if they can invest in islamic bank,,If they could see some good business opportunities, without going through bribes and all the stuff we know,,why would they go for interest - earnings....



Why are Islamic channels Haram,,I am really surprised at that, if they were not there in overseas countries, many of our children wont know what Islam is.

These so-called religious leaders should give a fatwa against Maulana Doubl-ur-Rehman,,,who always plays a double game in every government,,,,,
Interest/Riba is Haram replied on Saturday, June 26, 2010 03:44 AM 

Dears,
In Al-Quran it is very clear that any body involving himself in a business with interest/Riba has started a WAR with Allah(swt).

Question: Can you win a WAR with Allah(swt), you are most welcome to try it out, Jews have taken this challenge up and you will see inshaAllah what will happen with them, its very close within 5-10 years time ?

Guest,
Kind Regards,
MAS replied on Saturday, June 26, 2010 05:35 AM 

THE ISSUE HERE IS NOT WHETHER INTEREST IS HARAM OR NOT. The issue in this post is whether Islamic banking is Halal or not? Islamic banks such as Meezaan bank have many Islamic scholars (probably including Muftis and other experts on the subject) on their panel who supposedly ensure that their products are Sharia compliant.

If two groups of scholars disagree with each other (as they always do) then which should we follow. THAT IS THE ISSUE. How do I know that this particular group (Fiqhai Majlis-e-Karachi) is more authentic than others?

Trusting this particular group's judgement also means that we should EITHER stop visiting all TV channels, all internet sites and all newspapers with pictures of living things or like HYPOCRITES only give lip service to their fatwa while doing whatever we want to do.

I would like all those critical of Islamic Banking but especially Guest and Mohsin to please address my questions and concerns.
AD replied on Saturday, June 26, 2010 06:11 AM 

One of the great scholars of Islam, Allama Muhammad Iqbal has very rightly said,

“Deen-e-Mullah fi sabeel-Allah Fasaad”

The Mullahs have no credibility in our society. These are the same Mullahs who have been giving Fatwas to declare Muslims from other schools of thoughts as Non-Believers (Kafirs).

How can you believe them?

The Greatest Human Being ever lived on this earth, Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) has predicted this 1400 years ago that the Mullahs of last times will be like wolves.

They cannot even offer pray (Namaz) together.

They are the ones who have created hatred and differences among all Muslims.
AD replied on Saturday, June 26, 2010 06:20 AM 

Further to my previous reply:

There is no doubt that their verdict on Islamic TV Channels is a clear demonstration of their ignorance. I have started offering Namaz regularly after watching Dr. Shahid Masood’s “End of Times” back in 2003 and I know many other people who are greatly inspired by Dr. Zakir Naik and Sheikh Ahmed Deedat (May Allah Bless Him with high ranks in Jannah) and Dr. Israr Ahmed (May Allah Bless Him with high ranks in Jannah) on the Peace TV.

As far the Islamic Banking is concerned, I can offer the following Hadith of the Greatest Human Being ever lived on this earth (Prophet Muhammad Peace Be Upon Him):

“…refrain from things that put you in doubt…”
MAS replied on Saturday, June 26, 2010 06:52 AM 

Dear Ad, so it comes down to each person's own sincere judgment. In your mind there is NO DOUBT that decent TV channels and decent pictures/videos are halal despite fatwa to the contrary by this group of Muftis and Mashaikh.

In the case of Islamic Banking you have DOUBT despite the fact that scholars overseeing those banks in Pakistan as well as in the Arab world find it halal.

Someone else may have doubts about the pictures of living things but no-doubt about Islamic Banking. So in matters where there are differing expert opinions each person should act according to his own best and sincere judgment right?
AD replied on Saturday, June 26, 2010 07:17 AM 

Dear MAS

I agree with your conclusion.

This is also true in some other cases. For example the procedure to offer Namaz...if you read the Sahih Hadith, especially Sahih Bukhari, the procedure of Namaz, the rakat of Taravih etc. are totally different than what is normally being done in Pakistan.

These Mullahs have confused the whole Muslim Ummah with their Fatwas.

Again, the main focus should be to offer Namaz but they have started people declaring Kafirs just because they offer the Namaz slightly differently.

.
Mohsin replied on Saturday, June 26, 2010 12:23 PM 

Dear Mr. AD and All
Who declared Riba as HARAM is it Moulvi or Allah Taala and Rasul Allah (peace be upon him)? No Moulvi can ever declare something on its own. If Riba is Haram and if we can avoid it then why we bring justification of using it. It means we want to fight with Allah Taala. Please do not blame Moulvi in everything.
Please read Surah Talaq and see how Allah Taala tells us that who so ever beleives in HIM and do TAQWA, Allah Taala gives him RIZQ from the places from where he cant even imagine.
May Allah give us HIS TAQWA and TAWAKAL

Allah Hafiz
Thankful replied on Saturday, June 26, 2010 04:29 PM 

Can someone really elaborate or else give precise definition of RIBA?
MAS replied on Saturday, June 26, 2010 06:13 PM 

Dear Mohsin bhai you have addressed AD's issue with Ulema.
Can you please also address the concern I have raised. I am not blaming any Mufti or Mashaikh. I am not questioning their motive. Furthermore I am not saying that we should try to justify Riba in any way.

I am saying that Islamic banking was started in the middle east and Pakistan with the idea of following Islam not with the idea of disobeying Allah. It is therefore being done under the guidance of highly learned and sincere scholars with all kinds of Islamic education. They claim to thoroughly analyze their methods of banking to ensure they are obeying Allah.

My question is this: How can I with ordinary knowledge of Sharia decide that they are wrong. If another group of Ulema say they are wrong, how can I decide which one to follow? What if I find the Ulema in favor of Islamic banking more convincing? As a non-expert I would never advise anyone else to do this or that but I have to make decision for myself. How do I do that? Should I not follow whichever school of thought I find more convincing?

IF (repeat: IF) the idea of Islamic banking is in fact according to Sharia or significantly close to Sharia and I don't patronize such banks then would I not be helping in making them fail? If all the Islamic Banks fail would that not help interest based banks expand and take their place? Would that not be a disservice to Islam? Even if there are shortcomings in the methods used by Islamic Banks don't you think that can be corrected over time if they are given support.

Islamic Banking is not an easy subject. Islamic method of banking can probably not be implemented overnight with hundred percent accuracy. If we kill Islamic Banking now don't you think research and development in this field will be lost and we would be back to square one? Would it not be a better way to obey Allah if experts and Ulema give suggestions on how to improve Islamic Banking methods (in order to make it better compliant with Sharia) instead of driving it out of business completely?

Mohsin I am asking these questions as I have been contemplating moving funds from ordinary bank to Islamic Bank lately. I hope
you will understand my concern and give me a logical answer. Like I wrote above THE ISSUE HERE IS NOT WHETHER INTEREST IS HARAM OR NOT, we all know it is haram. The issue is how to deal with disagreements between Ulemas regarding Islamic Banking and HOW NOT TO HURT genuine efforts of Islamic Banks to follow the right path.
MAS replied on Sunday, June 27, 2010 07:21 AM 

If Mohsin bhai does not feel comfortable to respond to my concerns I invite others critical of Islamic banking to respond with an open mind.
AD replied on Monday, June 28, 2010 05:15 AM 

Hi MAS

Too many "IFs" in your post are clearly showing that you have a doubt on the sanctity of this so-called Islamic Banking. To me, this is good enough reason that one should refrain from it.
MAS replied on Monday, June 28, 2010 09:47 AM 

Dear AD, my doubt is regarding the degree of PERFECTION of Sharia compliance by them. I have NO DOUBT that the efforts of Islamic banks are a strong and worthy step in the right direction. I think when some business is making a serious and significant effort to follow the right path and we boycott that business we play a negative role and end up hurting the Islamic society.

We can never achieve perfection. Even when we buy soap from the market we have no idea if the soap factory is Sharia compliant or not. We can only go so far. If you want perfection you cannot even buy company stocks or shares (or conduct business of any kind) because none of the companies are hundred percent Sharia compliant.That is why Meezan bank has a list of companies that are much better than others (not perfect) in Sharia compliance.

Please take a look at the following link:
http://www.meezanbank.com/s_sc.aspx#sc1 After going through this page I can see why they are not perfect but I could not figure out how they are disobeying Allah. I enjoyed sharing ideas with you. Thank you and best regards.
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