Allama iqbal Discussion Property News & Community Talk

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JAMA

Sunday, August 15, 2010 03:50 AM

is realy allama iqbal was leader of pakistan ? i know he was great poet but i could not find any effort to built pakistan .
he ever meet any british leader to talk about pakistan ?
he ever visit in pakistan during struggling movement ?
when he said saray jahan say achha hindustan hamara ?
one thing i wanna clear that i respect iqbal as great muslim poet . but i have a doubt about pakistani leader .

History Now? replied on Sunday, August 15, 2010 04:52 AM

To my knowledge, Jinnah initially had no plans of a seprate country. Even once Jinnah went back to England due to disapointment to not to return. Iqbal along with others, convinced him to come back and fight for a separate country.

Dear, this not the time to question Iqbal's leadership. Lets don't waste our time in finding who did what. Lets work for the prosperity of pakistan, whoever made it.

Overseas Helpline replied on Sunday, August 15, 2010 05:36 AM

Please read the history of Pakistan before asking silly question

Pakistani replied on Sunday, August 15, 2010 07:13 AM

@JAMA
Read Iqbal's poetry and then question his leadership. Was he a 'zindabad murdabad' type leader? PROBABLY NO!. Did he contribute in reinvigorating Muslim self esteem with his poetry? YES! Was he a charismatic intellectual of his time? DEFINITLY YES!

You have to remember that in first half of the 20th century, there was no television or internet so the means to spread a message was print. Now was he a PAKISTANI leader? NO because he died in 1940. He was part of declaration of Pakistan movement on 23rd March. You probably should read a book or two before questioning Iqbal's contribution towards Pakistan.

A Reader replied on Sunday, August 15, 2010 08:32 AM

In fact Iqbal died in 1938, two years before the March 23, 1940 resolution of Pakistan and 9 years before the foundatin of Paksitan ( in 1947).

Apart from being a great poet and philosopher, he also held office of the president of Indian Muslim League for quite some time, so obiviously, he was a political leader of the Muslims of India, as well.

He had a great influence over Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah and he convinced Jinnah to come back to India from England and lead the Muslims of India.

Dr. Iqbal was one of the first Muslim leaders to suggest a separate country for Indian Muslims. Please read his presidential address in the annual convention of Indian Muslim League held at Allahabad in 1930.

http://majinnah.info/2009/09/allama-iqbals-presidential-address-at-allahabad-1930/

{

Allama Mohammad Iqbal,famous poet and philosopher, gave a monumental presidental address at Allahabad on 29th of december 1930 when most of the Muslim leaders were busy in London at Round Table conference.
He stated:

“I would like to see the Punjab, the North-West Frontier Province, Sind and Balochistan amalgamated into a single State. Self-government within the British Empire, or without the British Empire, the formation of a consolidated North-Western Indian Muslim State appears to me to be the final destiny of the Muslims at least of north-west India.”

“We are 70 million, and far more homogenous than any other people in India. Indeed, the Muslims of India are the only Indian people who can fitly be described as a nation in the modern sense of the word.”

...

}

And BTW, he wrote "saray jahan say achha hindustan hamara" forty or fifty years before the creation of Pakistan. At that time Hindustan (the land of Indus Valley dwellers) was his country (including what is now Pakistan) so nothing wrong with saying what he said. Disappointed by the hindu mindset and attitude, later on he wrote a new version:

"Cheen-o-Arab hamara, Hindustan hamara -- Muslim hain hum watan hai saara jahaan hamara"

Khan replied on Sunday, August 15, 2010 01:01 PM

Mr.Jama, please throw light on your educational level, so that your question can be replied to match that intellect. Only then the question will have validity. Else ?

JAMA replied on Sunday, August 15, 2010 02:07 PM

thanks atleast one thing have been cleared from A READER about Cheen-o-Arab hamara, Hindustan hamara -- Muslim hain hum watan hai saara jahaan hamara"it is logic and now my mind is clear about it

JAMA replied on Sunday, August 15, 2010 02:15 PM

mr khan i am trying to teach my children about the founder leaders of pakistan and there scrifice towards pakistan these children are very smart to google allama iqbal and other leaders but unfortunatly they could not find any thing for allma iqbal

limo replied on Sunday, August 15, 2010 06:31 PM

I personally think that he belongs to subcontinent and not only to pakistan as is claimed in our elementry syllabus books.Secondly his idea was to have a seperate state for the muslims of subcontionent which did never materialise. Only a fraction of those muslims about whom he wanted a seperate state could be accommodated in the newly emerged state of Pakistan.Unfortunately the leftover were never looked back at and an indian muslim can tell better how much they had to suffer because of this division based upon shear injustice.Zakir naik very rightly said that this division was a big blow to the very much needed unity of the subcontinent muslims.A lot of questions did arise in my mind also after reading iqbal's ~reconstruction of religious thoughts in islam~.But what sounds bit unfair is that only brighter sides of these personalities are shown to us which makes it impossible for one to undestand complete personality of such a figure.

nasir1 replied on Sunday, August 15, 2010 06:51 PM

@ A Reader

Appreciate your comments. :)

Rizwan replied on Sunday, August 15, 2010 07:55 PM

@ limo, i appreciate your comments, sometimes i also thing that we present Muslims League leaders like Quaid-e-Azam and Allama Muhmammad Iqbal as like Prophets, who can not do any mistake. If you ask someone to write an essay on these leaders, he can fill many papers. but if u ask him to write a single mistake done by them, he might not be able to move his pen.

A Reader replied on Monday, August 16, 2010 03:39 AM

We don't need to judge Quaid and Iqbal based on the revelations of Mr. Naik. In India he is still treated as a Maleech (no matter he is vegetarian or non-vegetarian).

Apart from very few exceptions, Muslims in India are worst off compared with any single community in India. And despite all the problems Pakistan has, here average Muslim is much better off than average Muslim in The Maha Bharat. The likes of Limo and Rizwan are advised to move to India and try it over there with CowKa Cola.

Looking at ourselves, in general, we are a nation of idiots who try to find bad things in leaders like Jinnah, Iqbal and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, and try to find good in the likes of Zardari, Benazir & Nawaz. Nobody is perfect but we have to see them as the whole packet and realize what good or bad on the whole they have achieved.

Now at this point of time we got what we deserve.

99.99% of us have a little Zardari in us. Everyone has his hand in someone else's pocket.

No wonder we got a "leader" who is likewise.

hasan replied on Monday, August 16, 2010 06:21 AM

jama is either mentally distarded person or having ulterior motives, particularly raising this question at this particular time. He is sick prson (patient) blaming the Doctor.

Naveed Yaseen replied on Monday, August 16, 2010 06:41 AM

> I personally think that he belongs to subcontinent and not only to pakistan as is claimed
> in our elementry syllabus books.

1) My elementary syllabus books used to refer him belonging to the east (Shaer-e-Mashriq) rather than just sub-continent or Pakistan.

2) He was born, had lived and died in areas which are now in Pakistan. So its natural for inhabitants of that region to take pride in that.

> Secondly his idea was to have a seperate state for the muslims of subcontionent
> which did never materialise. Only a fraction of those muslims about whom he wanted a
> seperate state could be accommodated in the newly emerged state of Pakistan.

Personally I am not against anyone migrating anywhere as long as they don't involve in anti-social activities, but can you please provide a reference that Iqbal wanted Muslims across India to migrate to the new state.

If you interpret this from his Khutba-e-Alabad:
"... the formation of a consolidated North-Western Indian Muslim State appears to me to be the final destiny of the Muslims at least of north-west India ..."

then please understand that the word 'destiny' is not same thing as 'destination'. The word 'destiny' is about time and fate, not space.

Even presuming (incorrect) spatial definition of 'destiny', it is still wrong to say that his idea never materialized. Please read his description of his idea again...
"I would like to see Punjab, NWFP, Sindh and Balochistan amalgamated into a single State"
and...
"a consolidated North-Western Indian Muslim State appears to me to be the final destiny of the Muslims AT LEAST of north-west India".

That did materialize.

> Unfortunately the leftover were never looked back at and an indian muslim can tell better
> how much they had to suffer because of this division based upon shear injustice.

To think that the primary reason of sufferings of Indian Muslims is partition, that is wrong.

Were Muslims not suffering before partition?
Are even Muslim majority regions of today's India not suffering?

To get an idea of how much stateless Muslims would have been powerful regardless of their number, one can see the political and social dynamics of pre-partition India. Muslim population were very weak economically (some argue partly due to manipulative monopolies), ignored politically and subject to discrimination, sometimes to violent riots.

Added to that, the shift of main power from the British to the Hindu was anticipated a step towards worse by many.

Everyone has right to have their opinion. I see sufferings of Muslims in India as an evident proof that independent state for Muslims majority areas was a correct decision.

> Zakir naik very rightly said that this division was a big blow to the very much needed
> unity of the subcontinent muslims.

I don't see how having sovereign state(s) of some Muslims stop them from being united with other Muslims. If something stops unity of Muslim inhabitants of sub-continent, that is not state of Pakistan. That is manipulative state of India.

One cannot see any major political platform of Muslims in India. That is not a co-incidence. Whichever organization appears having potential of Muslims unification platform, their activities are deterred/discouraged by different means, by abusing state machinery in name of secularism, and by not letting them fair media space. And if still some organization manages to grow, that is banned by label of terrorist organization.

The theory that Muslims' condition would have been better without partition is based on an impractical assumption. It assumes that all communities would adhere to democratic principles and would not cross their fair limits and would not manipulate. Reality is different.

Zealous replied on Monday, August 16, 2010 08:58 AM

100% agree with A Reader

Sohni Dharti replied on Monday, August 16, 2010 09:07 AM

Alama Muhammad Iqbal was the brain behind the creation of Pakistan and Quid-e-Azam was the executive. Alama was a man of immense intellect. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Iqbal

However I find the second reply of Mr. A Reader reflective of narrow thinking. Being uncritical about the Pakistan movement does not make you more patriotic than someone who offers honest and logical criticism (which may or may not be correct). Silencing genuine debate on any topic using ridicule does not silence questions in people’s mind. Since Limo’s post had no attack on personal motives or personal life of these leaders I have no problem with his reply. I have no reason to believe that “the likes of Limo and Rizwan” are not good Pakistanis.

As for the fact that we are much better off than Indian Muslims, that is exactly the point raised by the other side who feels that the strength of Indian Muslims was reduced from 33% to 13.4% after partition WHICH IS WHY they are worse off than us. They feel that together we could be a strong political and economic force in India. I disagree with this opinion and can give reasons for it but I am not willing to silence those who raise this issue. The state of our present leaders has nothing to do with this topic.

As Pakistanis it is our responsibility to work together to make Pakistan great to the point where we become a source of strength and leadership for all Muslims of the sub-continent and “take care of the left over”. That will be the ultimate answer to Limos concern.

Aamer replied on Monday, August 16, 2010 09:25 AM

Excellent analysis by Naveed Yaseen. It also clarifies misconceptions of peaceful living without partition.

Salman replied on Monday, August 16, 2010 09:44 AM

To answer Mr. Naveed Yaseen..
Sir I am not as intellectual as you are, but i would like to answer you when you say "Are even Muslim majority regions of today's India not suffering"

..I will narrate to you my own experience of visiting india...

Muslims in india feel much more safe than in Pakistan. People are much more happy than us, weather they are muslims or hindus. They have learned to co-exist peacefully, barring few areas.

At least they dont kill people based on different principles of islamic idealogy. IE Talibans killing innocent civilians because their version of islam is different from ours, sectarian violence, political target killings. What safety are we talking about in Pakistan? Therefore i disagree with you.

Secondly regarding equal opportunity to everyone; Their president was a muslim Abul Kalam Azad,,, have we ever had a president with the name of Joseph Disouza. No, because our constitution does not have this tolerance.

Their number One film star is ShahRukh Khan (a Muslim), Number 2 may be Amer Khan (another muslim). Do we see any hindu or christian exceeding in their career in films. NO. We used to crack jokes on Yousaf Yohana...what tolerance are we talking about.

Thirdly, the right and freedom to practice religion... if christians open up a tv channel in pakistan, it will be put on fire. On the other hand, we see Dr. Zakir Naik is preaching freely to everyone through his channel in no other place than INDIA.

THEREFORE, MY REQUEST TO EVERYONE IS THAT "TRUTH DOES NOT CHANGE, BASED ON OUR ABILITY TO DIGEST IT"

I am a proud Pakistani, but i am also a true believer in OBJECTIVITY based assessment of things.

We have been ruled by Army for ages and they have spoiled our mind so much that we cannot even think about INDIA in a positive sense.

No two neighbours in this world have so much hatred than india and Pakistan. What for? We are best friends when we are abroad and worst enemies when we are in our respective countries

Sohni Dharti replied on Monday, August 16, 2010 10:14 AM

Now that I am ready to give arguments in favor of creating Pakistan I see that Naveed Yaseen has already given them. While agreeing with most of his post I must mention where I disagree.

"... the formation of a consolidated North-Western Indian Muslim State appears to me to be the final destiny of the Muslims AT LEAST of north-west India ..."

Based on this part of Allahabad address Naveed concludes that Iqbal did not ask or want muslims across India to migrate to the new state. I find this interpretation irrational because of two reasons. First look at the phrase “AT LEAST” in the above quote. Does’nt this phrase mean that at least some others may also be expected to join that destiny? Secondly look at the platform and position he used to give his vision. He was speaking in ALLAHABAD in 1930 as the PRESIDENT OF THE ALL-INDIA MUSLIM LEAGUE. Repeat: ALL-INDIA Muslim League not PART-INDIA Muslim League. Could it make any sense to give this vision on behalf of Muslims of North-West India only, excluding the rest of Muslims while representing ALL Muslims of India and while asking for support all across India?

Obviously one could not rationally expect ALL Muslims of India to fit in what was to become Pakistan and the matter was deliberately left to each Muslim to make his own decision about migration. There was no other way of being sincere about the Two-Nation theory. I am sure that if the number of Muslims left in India were very small they would have been urged by the leaders to migrate to Pakistan. Why do you think Hindus and Sikhs migrated out of Pakistan? Are you sure someone having the intellect of Iqbal could not foresee this?

Pardesi, Jeddah replied on Monday, August 16, 2010 10:54 AM

As it turned into a good debate from unjustified questions raised in the beginning, I would like to draw each one's attention to a Hadith Mubarakah of our beloved Prophet Mohammad SAW the crux of the meanings of the Hadith is that when the argument starts from the Arabic word 'Lo' (meaning IF) the satan starts interfering into it.... If it happened like this..... If it was done like that.... etc. We should not forget that Pakistan is a reality since 1947 & the questions like IF we were together mean nothing.

AND yes we have been struggling despite all criticism. Even at its disastrous present situation, visionaries round-the-globe see much potential in the state & the people of Pakistan; NOT in the Indian Muslims despite their strength equal to or more than the population of Pakistan nor in other parts of the world. A state in the hands of Muslims means something where it can have a much better position on the negotiation table with other nations of the world & has no comparison with 33% united Muslims in MINORITY.

Regarding Quaid & Iqbal I would only add that we need to judge by their sayings & their deeds. Did anyone of them use politics for their own-self?

I invite all of you to think without bias that yes Pakistan has yet to prove its purpose of being.
. Can raw & immature state do miracles?
. Can a mix of all kinds of diverse groups of people perform together in one direction? Especially, when each one of them is extraordinarily emotional, enthusiastic & passionate that its ideology is the supreme?
. Will the theory of evolution seizes to set in motion?
. With this hand, will the ill-conceived mindset not benefit from the situation?
. Will the suppressed class not be black-mailed with false promises?
.....
.....
.....

It is a divine test from which we are being tested & passing through evolutionary stages. The bright side of it is that now we know who is who. I therefore, salute to the will-power, courage, desperateness & potential of a common Pakistani.

Just one last thought to share with you:
In Surah Ar-Rahman, Ayah 7, Allah says He has set a balance. Almost all the commentators have interpreted mizan (balance) to mean justice, and '...set the balance" to imply that Allah has established the entire system of the Universe on justice. Had there been no harmony and balance and justice established among the countless stars and planets moving in space, and the mighty forces working in this Universe, and the innumerable creatures and things found here, this life on earth would not have functioned even for a moment. Look at the creatures existing in the air and water and on land for millions and millions of years on this earth. They continue to exist only because full justice and balance has been established in the means and factors conducive to life; in case there occurs a slight imbalance of any kind, every tract of lift would become extinct. (Interpretation taken from Maulana Moudoodi's explanations)

Today the sorrows, miseries, problems & issues of very existence of Pakistan are imbalanced; I don't know the future but I am pretty sure that the time has come when with His direct divine justice Allah will balance this imbalanced system of Pakistan.

tzk replied on Monday, August 16, 2010 12:03 PM

Iqbal attended round table confrence, presented idea of 'pakistan' in muslim league meeting, called Quaid-e-Azam M A Jinnah back

tzk replied on Monday, August 16, 2010 12:04 PM

Also remember Iqbal died in 1938 and Saray Jahan say acha hindustan was written much earlier. After that he wrote Muslim hain hum watan hay sara jahan hamara on the same these.

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